[Avodah] Minhag Yisroel

[Chana Luntz]

> > RZS wrote:
> 
> >> Your ancestors did.  A person has the right to make a
> neder binding on him and his future descendants.

RJR responded:
 
> > What is the makor for this right (for an individual or a community -

> > although I could see a community as more logical than an individual)

RYG wrote:
 
> "kabalas herem hala aleihem ve'al zaram ..." - SA YD 214:2 "nidui 
> ve'herem hal al doros ha'ba'im" - ibid 228:35

And then RJR wrote:

>Sorry for the lack of clarity - this din (which iiuc is based on the
gemara in Pesachim 50b) is based on a pasuk in mishlei(Shma bni
musar..). So my 
>question was, what is the makor, as in is this an offshoot of a neder,
is it halacha moshe misinai, is it a gezeira of the rabbanan.....?

Is it possible to say that it is based on Vayikra 27:29 (the relevant
pasuk is kol cherem asher yicharam min haadam lo yfadeh mos umas)?

The Ramban there says that we deduce from this pasuk that a king
b'yisroel or sanhedrin gedola in the presence of all Israel who has the
authority to institute judgments, if they declare something cherem, one
who violates this is guilty of death. And, according to the Chatam Sofer
in teshuva 208 of Orech Chaim, this is because the mechanism that gives
this authority, which then operated to give the authority to the later
statement by Yehoshua that anybody who transgresses his command shall be
put to death (which can't be the primary source as it is from Nach) is
found in this pasuk as follows:  All of Yisroel said to Yehoshua that
whoever transgresses your command shall be put to death, thus creating a
cherem from the Torah which, based on this pasuk, makes the transgressor
liable from the Torah to be put to death.

But working backwards, doesn't this analysis of the Chatam Sofer
presuppose that the kind of kabala referred to in the Shulchan Aruch by
RYG above is learnt out of this pasuk?  {I know this is a rather back
handed way of getting at it, but I couldn't find anything directly
commenting on the pasuk that seemed to say it explicitly, rather to my
surprise - although it may well be out there).
 
> > KT
> > Joel Rich

Regards

Chana