[Avodah] tower of bavel

[Lisa Liel]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:35:20 +0200, "Eli Turkel"
<eliturkel at gmail.com> wrote:
> According to simple pshat all mankind lived in Bavel until the tower
> of Bavel and following dispersion. According to the standard 
> chronology this occurred shortly before the year 2000 from creation 
> i.e. some 3800 years ago.
> 
> 1. Noach, Shem, Ever, Abraham were all alive no one seemed to have 
> any influence especially since everyone there was a descendent of 
> Noach (and Shem?)

Ten generations?  I would imagine that most people alive at the time
weren't even aware that Noach was still alive.  Shem and Ever had a
school, but they weren't necessarily public figures.  Can you imagine
if your 10x great-grandfather were still alive?  Over the course of
centuries, surely he wouldn't be hanging around bouncing his
grandchildren on his knee.

> 2. Avraham goes to Canaan some 25 years later. At that time Ur, and 
> most of mesoptamia and Caanan and Eygpt is well populated with 
> kings and major governments etc. According to the parsha this all 
> occurred within an exceeding short time.

How so?  I don't get why you say that simple pshat says all of
mankind was resident in Mesopotamia.  Simple pshat always includes
context.  And it's clear from the context that there were people
living in Eretz Yisrael (the cities of the plain) and Egypt, at the
very least.  Simple pshat might be that Shinar was the world capitol,
but that's about all.

> In general were there any people in EY before the dispersion?

If Arei Hakikar were in Eretz Yisrael, then yes.  Presumably the
Philistines were in Philistia as well, and depending on where you
consider Seir to have been, there were probably Horites there.

> 3. The usual question of secular records that indicate dynasties 
> older than 3800 years old some in the middle east and some far away.

I'm not convinced that this is the case.  At one point, the First
Dynasty in Egypt was dated 6000 BCE.  Since then, it's been brought
down by millenia.  That story isn't over yet.

I noticed that this was a condensation of something you posted back
in 1999:

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol03/v03n151.shtml#04

Did you not get any answers at the time?

Lisa

--
The Book of Esther in the Light of History, now available at:
http://www.lulu.com/starways/

Images from a Twisted Mind at http://www.cafepress.com/starways/