[Avodah] Shmini Atzeret - why Sukkah YES and Lulav NO?

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

Over a week ago, I wrote:
> Shmini Atzeres in chu"l is safek Chol Hamoed. ... Safek
> Brachos L'Kula too, so even for a seudas keva, no one says
> Leshev on Shmini. Lulav, on the other hand, is already
> D'Rabanan on Chol Hamoed. Safek D'Rabanan L'Kula on Shmini.

Offlist, an esteemed listmember corrected me:
> The bracha on sukkah is not made on Shmini Atzeres _not_
> because of safek bracha l'kula.  Why is it any more safek
> bracha than the brachos on matza and maror at the second seder?

Yes, indeed, I misspoke. There's no safek here at all. Here's a revised version:

On Second Day Of Hoshana Raba, we do things which met both of two criteria on the previous day: It is a D'Oraisa (and not d'Rabanan or minhag), and it is a Real Chiyuv (and not optional, by which I include even chiyuvim which are not m'akev).

I think that these criteria are enough to allow for all the exceptions that I can think of:

- Kvias Seudah still has to be in the sukkah
- Even Kvias Seuda on mezonos (which would have required Leshev on Sukkos) has to be in the sukkah
- Some posts cited poskim who say even sleeping has to be in the sukkah (my guess is that those poskim insist on sleeping in the sukkah on Sukkos too)
- No snacks are eaten in the sukkah
- No bracha of Leshev Basukkah under any circumstances
- No lulav under any circumstances
- No Ushpizin or Hoshanos either
- Musaf is only Bayom Hashmini, and does not include Uvayom Hashvii

Why so very many exceptions? As the other listmember wrote to me, without these exceptions
> ... it would be a denigration of Shmini, indicating that
> it is not yet Yom Hashmini, but rather a continuation of day 7.

Yet we *DO* eat in the sukka on this day. Why is that not a denigration of Shmini?

Many people answer this with the answer that R"nTK gave in her husband's name:
> But sitting in the sukka is OK because people might go
> outside to eat in a in a shady booth even if it wasn't
> any kind of holiday.

I fully admit that MANY MANY people who know a LOT more Torah than I do give that very same answer. But I do not understand how they resolve that idea with the often-quoted midrash (or gemara?) that Sukkos is in the autumn davka because this is NOT the time of year when people go outdoors.

Which is why my view is to admit that eating in the Sukkah on The Second Day Of Hoshana Rabba DOES denigrate Shmini Atzeres. And that's why the gemara had such a debate about what to do. There *IS* a conflict here, and - WADR - it would be cognitive dissonance to pretend there isn't. So they debated what to do.

They could have said to skip the sukkah entirely. Or they could have said to even say Leshev. But they compromised, and concluded that Yesuvi Yasvinan, Bruchi Lo MeVarchinan (we do sit, but we don't bless). They chose to respect the kavod of Shmini, yet still enforce the Safek Shvii, and get by with the absolute minimum that we can get away with - only Real Chiyuvim D'Oraisa, of which Kvias Seuda in the Sukka is the only one.

Akiva Miller