[Avodah] lifnei iver/kanaus

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 01:10:22AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: The Talmud/SA tells us that we may not hit a child past a certain age [15
: iirc] because he might hit you back and you would thereby trangress lifnei
: iver...on an issur of misas beis din no less.

Might, not probably.

Think of the gezeirah against blowing shofar on Shabbos. Takanos do not
require a very high threshold of probability.

: Granted, that there are exceptions, neverthless I would posit that corporal
: punishment has not worked effectively [as a rule] for about 2,000 years or
: more.

OTOH, there are many statements permitting and even advising the use
of punishment. Not to mention the words of Mishlei, except according to
RSWolbe's daas yachid.

:        Anyone learning "Elu hein Halokin will notice that the way malkus is
: practiced it is more about shaming, embarrassing, and stimgatizing, then
: about inflicting physical pain.

Then why did you need a doctor to check if he could survive the next
three?

In any case, what I said about the role of the stick (as opposed to
the carrot) changing in the course of the Enlightenment through the
establishment of the US and rights-based gov't through the Me Decade
etc... stands whether the punishment in question is corporeal or some
other painful experience.

Even the 19th cent Oust Yudden responded more constructively to punishment
than we do today. It's important to keep in mind when reading Tenu'as
haMussar. To my mind, this element is the key issue over which mussar
evolved from RYS to Novoradok to Slabodka. The theory fit the needs of
students of those decades.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
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