[Avodah] Badatz denounces violent demonstrations

[Jonathan Baker]

From: T613K at aol.com
> From: "Jonathan Baker" _jjbaker at panix.com_ (mailto:jjbaker at panix.com) 

> > Israel is a JEWISH state. Its police is a Jewish
> > police, appointed by the (majority-Jewish) government. Its power to
> > enforce the law is part of the Torah system. How can it be "mesirah"
> > to report a crime to the Israeli police? Police brutality is a separate
> > issue, but they are expected to be brutal in the Torah.<<

> Israel does not claim to be a "Torah" state nor are its laws the laws of the 
> Torah nor does it follow halacha in most instances nor are its judges and 
> police the shoftim and shotrim of the Torah. 

The first two lines are "yeah, so", and the last clause is just an opinion.

There is the other opinion that the government of Israel has a din melech
willy nilly, being a Jewish State, even if it isn't a Torah state - after
all, look at the non-Torah state that was the Kingdom of Judea, so much a
non-Torah state that the Torah was forgotten in the 8th century BCE and
had to be rediscovered by Josiah and Co.

> about the many Russian policemen in Israel (some with crosses around their 
> necks) ,and even the Jewish police are the lowest people in Israel, chosen from 
> the ranks of the most brutal and least civilized strata of society. There has 
> also been much testimony on Areivim and in many other places about police 
> brutality against guilty rioters and innocent bystanders alike.  They will wade 

As I said, brutality is a separate issue, and is also recognized by the
gemara as the way that police work - "by staff and strap." Read the
braitas and Rashi that I brought. Excessive brutality should be dealt
with separately, but the Jewish police of the Jewish state seem to be
exactly the shotrim that the Torah talks about. Particularly for those
who hold that the State government has a "din melech". Chana Luntz
mentioned this in the name of the Ran (she thought), as well as popular
acceptance of Devorah even if not qualified technically to rule (Ramban,
Shevuot 30a), in Avodah v15n69.

See also R' Aharon Lichtenstein, http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/kings09.htm
who implies that police power qua "public security" is a basic government
function. So as long as the government is "legitimate", police is a
legitimate exercise of governmental authority. Which is why claims that
the police are "illegitimate" are in the realm of political opinon,
rather than halachic fact. For R' Lichtenstein, legitimacy hinges on
whether the viewer thinks the government is empowered to give away land
for piece; if the viewer thinks yes, the government is legitimate, if
no, not.  Now, perhaps Toby is of the Chasidic or extreme Settler per-
spective that doesn't recognize the legitimacy f the government. But I
don't think that's the Agudist perspective, let alone the DLs.

You're expressing your opinion, and so am I - looking at the Torah
and Chazal, it seems likely that the Israeli police are the Shotrim 
of the Torah, even in a limited role of enforcing dina demalchuta
dina. To you, not so much. OK.

And as others have pointed out - the police are brutal, but so are those
chareidim who choose to throw rocks at their co-religionists. And members
of this list have been (or have friends who have been) on the receiving 
end of those rocks. Police will overreact, but if the know they're going
into a violent neighborhood, it's more likely that they will hit first
and ask questions never.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker at panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com