[Avodah] lifnei iver/kanaus

[Doron Beckerman]

 RnCL:



>> If an example is impossible, it does not strike me as a relevant
example.


I didn't say it is impossible, I said it isn't realistic. Of course it is
possible. Reuven is about steal Shimon's diamond. Reuven catches Shimon,
Shimon runs away, Reuven chases him with a knife. Levi, standing a few feet
away,has permanently blinding 'mace' which he can spray on the
Rodef, or grab the diamond himself (with the intent to return it) and
call out to Reuven that he has the diamond. Any lack of realism in this
example is not due to impossibilty, just a bit of a lack of creativity.



>> And if by doing some other averah to achieve the same result ought there
also to be leeway - eg if the rav was boel the talmid's wife as a way of
bringing him to his senses, that would also be OK?  Ok that is a yarog
v'al yavor, but I am sure you can come up with an issur lav. <<

But you concede that in a case of a Rodef, blinding him instead of taking
the diamond would be excessive force. The point of the other Poskim is that
"Mamono Chaviv Migufo" is illogical.
(Also, it isn't even all that clear that the source for Chavalah is "Pen
Yosif" and not "Lo Yosif."


>> Rav Henkin does bring all this. The main point he is making though is
that one could not even start a discussion about whether gezeila is
yarog v'al yavor if you allow gezela as a kal v'chomer from hitting.
The whole argument goes away based on, well hitting is not yarog v'al
yavor, gezela is more kal than hitting, so therefore it cannot be yarov
v'al yavor, end of issue.  The fact that this line of reasoning is not
imployed in the yarog v'al yavor for gezela discussion, even by those
who hold that gezeila is not yarog v'al yavor indicates that in fact we
do not learn the kal v'chomer in this way. <<

If that were true, then Yehareg V'Al Yaavor for Gezeila would fall away due
to other Issurei Misas Beis Din not being Yehareg V;Al Yaavor,
(notwithsatnding the Aggadic statement of K'illu Notel Es Nafsho).

>> I confess I don't think it reads that way, rather the kal v'chomer is to
chavla, which itself is a kal v'chomer from being able to kill him
outright. <<

It doesn't seem that way to me from Rashi and Tosfos.

Kol Tuv,

Doron
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