[Avodah] Loaning without eidim, and talking to ladies

[Michael Kopinsky]

On 8/12/07, Kayza Zajac <s.zajac at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Or to go to a Jewish source:  One who gives a loan without properly
> documenting it is considered a Rasha.  (My husband is not here, so I cannot
> ask him for the exact source.)


BM 75b: (I got it first guess!  I'm proud of myself for remembering.)

"Amar Rav Yehuda amar Rav: Kol mi sheyeish lo ma'os umalveh osan shelo
b'eidim oveir mishum lifnei iveir lo sitein michshol. V'Reish Lakish omeir,
goreim klala l'atzmo, shene'emar..."  (The gemara continues with a story.
Ayen sham.)

The Ritva there says that this isn't an issur mamesh, but only a middas
chassidus.  He compares it with something else commonly understood to be an
issur, but he holds that that is also midas chassidus.  Unfortunately, I
can't remember what.

Come to think of it, this could be the Ritva l'shitaso at the end of
kiddushin, who says that the issur of "Ein Shoalim b'shlom isha klal" can be
avoided if one is entirely sure that no bad can come out of the
conversation.  (Then again, he adds that this should only be relied on by
someone who is muvhak b'chassidus (or something like that), which kind of
makes it not so practical as a hetter.  Though the poskim quote the Ritva
without that stipulation.)

On the topic of Ein Shoalim b'shlom isha:  (Ladies, close your ears.)

Does this issur apply to a p'nuya, or only to an eishes ish?  It makes sense
that it would only apply to an eishes ish, as the concern is that it will
lead to an areivah, and only by an eishes ish is that a real concern.
(Be'ilas p'nuya is only d'rabbanan and takanta l'takanta lo avdinan.)
However, none of the poskim (at least that I've seen) make such a chiluk.

If the issur applies to a p'nuya, what is the hetter for dating?  It should
be assur for one to ask his fiance how she is doing.  (Before anyone jumps
on me, I will point out that only regarding the issur of histaklus is there
a hetter if it is for the sake of marriage.  Such a hetter is not mentioned
by the SA or any of the primary poskim (where primary = the ones I've seen)
regarding she'eilas shalom.)

It could be that the halacha was developed in a cultural background of
arranged weddings, where one did not talk to his fiance/kallah/shidduch a
lot before the wedding, and only had a brief glance to make sure he agreed
with his parents' choice.  In such a case, a blanket issur of she'eilas
shalom would make sense.  But what would the halacha be today?

And with this I end my unconnected stream of random Torah thoughts.

KT,
Michael
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