[Avodah] Badatz Denounces Violent Demonstrations

[Jonathan Baker]

From: saul mashbaum <smash52 at netvision.net.il>
 
> RTK poignantly described her process of charata and tshuva for
> reporting many years ago destructive activities by apparently
> chareidi youths
 
> RMMiller reponded sarcasticly:

>> Thanks for sharing. B"H, now, their children know it's ok to do the
>> same, since no one will call the police if they protest in a "frum"
>> neighborhood.
 
> I am inclined to believe RMM's position is more proper. If anything,
> instead of branding those who report such crimes as mosrim, we may
> look at those who commit them as rodfim: by their actions, they are
> endangering innocent members of their community.

RMM responded:
> Let me just say that I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of
> reporting yidden to a secular police. That said, until I see another
> option, for matters of sakanas nefashos, I see no other option. Even

It seems to me that next week's parsha mandates a police presence, in 
the first verse, no?  What am I missing, that nobody has raised this
issue yet?

: Chapter 16
: 18. You shall set up judges and law enforcement officials for yourself
: in all your cities that the Lord, your God, is giving you, for your
: tribes, and they shall judge the people [with] righteous judgment.

A quick Bar-Ilan search tells us:

Sanhedrin 16b: Braita: one must appoint police, (veshotrim), tribal
police (lishvateicha), city police (lish'areicha).  This is codified
by Rambam in Hil. Sanhedrin 1:1.

Pesikta Rabbati Piska 33 d"h Anochi Anochi - seems to indicate the physical
nature of police power, referring to "the staff and the strap".

Rashi on the verse: Police force the people to follow the dictates of
the court, that they use staff and strap to get people to accept the
law of the judge.

Seems to me that Mike Miller's position is proper, rather than RnTK's
apparent position.  Israel is a JEWISH state.  Its police is a Jewish
police, appointed by the (majority-Jewish) government.  Its power to
enforce the law is part of the Torah system.  How can it be "mesirah"
to report a crime to the Israeli police?  Police brutality is a separate
issue, but they are expected to be brutal in the Torah.

If it were a "secular" police, I might have less problem with this 
"mesirah" position, but how can the Jewish police in the Jewish state
under a Jewish government, be the object of "mesirah"?

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker at panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com