[Avodah] R' Ovadiah Yosef re candle-lighting

[Chana Luntz]

RTK brings a quote from the Jerusalem post saying:

> Yosef blasted the opposing view, saying it was based on the 
> opinion of "a few stupid women. A woman's knowledge is only 
> in sewing,"

This, by the way, is almost certainly a quote from Rabbi Eliezer in the
Talmud Yerushalmi Sotah perek 3 halacha 4 in the context of answering a
question of a woman on the chet haegel (ie why was it that there was
only on chet, but three types of deaths) - ie really a Torah shebichtav
question, where he refused to answer what appears to be quite a lomdishe
question and rather responded ain chachma shel isha ela b'pilcha and as
a proof text quoted Shmos 35:25.  The quote (ie ain chachma) however is
further brought in our context, ie regarding making brochas over the
shabbas candles, inter alia by the Magen Avraham in Orech Chaim siman
263 si'if 12 (more on this below).  I thought usual translation was of
as spinning/ weaving, rather than sewing, but no matter - the reference
is pretty clear if you know it exists.

 he ridiculed. "Women should find other jobs and 
> make hamin (cholent) but not deal with matters of Torah." 
> In addition, he admonished women for following in the steps 
> of their mothers in the order of the recitation of the 
> blessing instead of adhering to his opinion. 
> "It has to be announced that women should not listen to the 
> voice of their mothers or grandmothers not to continue with 
> this mistake," he warned. 

RTK then writes:

>Women make a bracha /after/ lighting because by making the bracha, they
have brought in Shabbos, and now cannot kindle a candle. (On yom tov
they light a >match, then recite the bracha and then light the candles
from the match.)   In order to maintain the usual order of bracha first,
mitzva after, they close >their eyes while reciting the bracha, then
open their eyes and look at the candles after saying the bracha.  (They
also welcome the Shabbos queen with a >>sweeping-in gesture of their
arms, three times.)

>I know that I have just said something absolutely elementary and basic
to everyone on arvm.  But to ROY, all the above is the product of a
mistake 
>introduced by some woman -- when exactly?  

He is talking about the mother and/or wife of the Drisha (the Magen
Avraham says the mother, but the reference in the introduction to the
Drisha's commentary on Yoreh Deah, talks mostly about Beila, who seems
to be the wife of the Drisha - historians out there anyone?, she seems
to have been a remarkable woman, whoever she was, you should read what
is written in the introduction to the Drisha's commentary on Yoreh Deah
about her).  In any event, what appears to be not disputed is that what
you have described is precisely what this woman held, and which is
quoting approvingly by the Drisha, and appears to be the dominant
halachic position in Ashkenaz and what women (including many Sephardi
women, which is what is irritating ROY) have been doing.

The Magen Avraham after bringing exactly what you said (ie about a
difference in the way you light shabbas and yom tov candles) adds, and
so brings the Drisha in the name of his mother but ain chachma l'isha
etc and the chachamim did not distinguish".  That is, it seems that the
Magen Avraham's problem is with the difference between lighting on
shabbas and yom tov.

However, the idea that you make the bracha after you light on shabbas is
brought by the Rema as the minhag in Ashkenaz in Orech Chaim siman 263
s'if 5 - ie it is an Ashkenazi minhag, and it would seem that the
Mechaber held differently, ie you should make the bracha and then light.
So if you are a pure Mechaber (ie Maran) man, as ROY is, then you would
regard this whole idea of lighting first then making the bracha as
wrong, at least for Sephardim.  However, as RSB has written on this list
before, there is sometimes a significant divergence between the minhagim
as they actually were for the various different Sephardi groupings, and
as the Maran specifies.  This may well have been one of them -
particularly given that it is buttressed by the authority of the Drisha
(and his mother/wife) and the practice in Ashkenaz. 

In general by the way, there is a whole series of problems with making
the bracha after you have completed the act over which the brocha is
made.  The only exception that is categorically agreed to is that of a
ger making his brocha over his tevila, and that is because before he
does the tevila he is not Jewish and hence cannot make the brocha, so
perforce he has to do it after the tevila.  So it is not that surprising
that a view can be held quite strongly that the Ashkenazi order is
wrong, and in fact you can see from the Rema that there is an issue that
he tries to deal with by not getting hana'a from the candles before the
brocha is made.  The only problem with that is this - is the brocha over
the creating of lit candles, or is it over the act of lighting the
candles.  If over the lit candles, then what the Rema says is fine, but
we say "l'chadlik ner shel shabbas" - which might suggest that the key
act is the lighting, not the production of the lit candles, which would
then mean that the act over which the brocha is made (ie the lighting)
has already been completed by the time the brocha is made.  

>Actually he seems to be saying two different things that are prima
facie contradictory:  1. we light before the bracha because we are
blindly following 
>mistakes made by our grandmothers and 2. we light before the bracha
because women have been trying to learn Torah, for which they are
totally unsuited, 
>and have misunderstood what they learned.  Had women not tried to learn
Torah, they never would have made such a mistake!

>(Is he saying that our GRANDMOTHERS tried to learn Torah and
misunderstood what they learned?)

Yup.  At least if you are related the the Falks of Prisha U'Drisha fame,
I would guess (dates anyone?).

>Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing how all this is going
over in Israel, in charedi and in Sefardi circles.

I don't think it is anything new, I think he has been saying the same
thing for years.  Basically it depends on whether you follow ROY on
these kind of issues or not (ie do you follow Maran over minhag or not).
If yes, then you will light the way he says.  If not, and unquestionably
in Ashkenaz they follow the Rema, then it is a non issue.  How one
relates to the Drisha and his family is a different question, but most
women, I would guess, don't have any idea that ROY is lambasting
Ashkenaz and Sephardi minhag for following the psak of a woman. 

>--Toby Katz

Regards

Chana