[Avodah] The Rambam, rationalism and mysticism

[Celejar]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:12:52 -0700 RAF wrote:

> I wrote
> > > Cognoscenti see in the Moreh Nevukhim a mystical system, too (in the
> > > third
> 
> RYG asked:
> > That may be the view of some, but is it the mainstream understanding?
> 
> It is my understanding that that view is fairly mainstream. I learned it from 

Without more evidence, I do not accept this view, and am not convinced
that it is the mainstream.  While I am aware that there is evidence of
Sufi influence in the thought of various thinkers who lived and wrote
in Islamic civilizations, I would like to see justification for this
claim about the Rambam.

> an academician. The difficulty here is distinguishing between Kabbalah 
> (Zohar, Bahir, perhaps even Sefirot, etc.) and mysticism in general. Look, 
> the philosophical Rishonim and Geonim did not exclude Sefer Yetzira from the 
> cannon, and despite Rav Sa'adya Gaon's attempt to explain it philosophically, 
> I don't think it can be entirely reduced to rational philosophy.

I concede that there is much in the medieval attempts to rationalize
Talmudic literature which greatly strains one's credibility, but the
issue here isn't the level of plausibility that you or I assign these
interpretations, but the fact that Rishonim apparently believed them;
this is not because the Rishonim are necessarily infallible, but
because our discussion is about whether historically Judaism has been
inextricably intertwined with mysticism.

> But then again, mysticism need not conflict with rational philosophy. What 
> matters is the kind of mysticism. According to most readings in Rambam, ve'al 
> a'hat qama veqama other authorities, the soul retains individuality after 
> death, meaning that the soul has a real, separate existence, distinct from 
> the body. Consequently, it isn't so surprising to consider the world of the 
> soul, i.e. mysticism.

The Rambam apparently considered this a purely scientific belief, and
maintained that Aristotle believed the same thing; I don't think there
was anything mystical about it from his perspective.

> With this, I have also replied to your other question. However, I would like 
> to stress that even if you were to deny what I consider obvious, meaning that 
> you would deny that mystical experiences can be real and valid even according 
> to rationalist philosophers, I care to stress that Ashkenaz clearly accepted 
> mysticism, as we see the numerous references to angelology, as in Makhnisei 
> Ra'hamim and Midat haRa'hamim 'Aleinu Hitgalgeli. Thus, the Ashkenaz that 
> rejected the popularization of kabbalah and may be never even accepted the 
> authoritative character that some other circles granted it, this same 
> Ashkenaz clearly accepted Jewish mysticism as a concept.
> 
> Hence there is no contradition between accepting the mystical concept of 'eit 
> ratzon regarding seli'hot, and rejecting the inclusion of kabbalistic prayers 
> or minhaggim.

No quarrel with this.

> Kind regards & gemar tov,
> -- 
> Arie Folger
> http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Yitzhak
--
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