[Avodah] kesuvah

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, July 17, 2007 7:50 am, Arie Folger wrote:
:> ... and why doesn't this reduce it to an aspachta [asmachta --AF]?

: Because the ketubah isn't only about what the wife will get when she
: gets a get (puns intended), but both the support owed while married
: and the maintenance owed after her husband dies.

First, let me think you for your honesty, admitting to that pun being
intentional. The idiom "no pun intended" seems to really mean "pun
intended". But getting to the point...

A single codicil on a kesuvah can make the whole shetar an asmachta.
This is the problem with the Leiberman clause. Which is not only
restricted to covering the case of divorce, but only to the case of
civil divorce with no get forthcoming -- a very rare resolution of the
contract.

I therefore fail to understand your answer.


On Tue, July 17, 2007 9:26 am, Jonathan Baker wrote:
: Probably the amounts were sufficient to cover the ketubah.  Were you
: married in Galut or Israel?  In Israel, they often put realistic
: amounts on the ketubah (as a tosefet); in Galut, statutory amounts
: (200 zuz, 200 zekukim).

Just because of the season, I will nit-pick: Galus isn't a place, it's
a metaphysical state. Galus Yavan was entirely within the period of
Bayis Sheini. Galus is galus haShechinah, hesteir Panim, etc...

I think you meant "golah".

:> How much money (in modern currency) is the kesuvah supposed to be,
:> anyway?

: Some sources say "enough for food and clothing [not shelter,
: apparently] for a year", which might be, say, $5000?

: The weights of silver translate to: 200 zuz, 11.5 oz. troy, 200
: zekukim, 115 oz. troy.

I understand your translation from zuz to dollars, given the price of
silver.

Here's something from a discussion we had on scjm in Apr '00:

The zuz is a unit of currency found often in the Talmud, there it is
assumed to be identical to the silver dinar, both being 1/4 of a sela
or 1/2 of a shekel. (A gold dinar is worth 25 silver dinar.)

- A zuz was day's wages for unskilled labor (Bava Basra 86b).
- 4 zuz was a more typical person's day's wages (BM 76a)
- A wife is permitted to demand a minimum of 1/6 of a zuz a week for
personal luxuries.
- 200 zuz is a young bride's kesuvah, 100 is a  widow's.
- 200 zuz was also the poverty line (Peu'ah 8:8, Sotah 21b), in terms
of who can take gleanings for the poor

Some more metrics on the going buying power of a zuz:
- 1,000 zuz (250 sela) would buy a house of a field (BM 48a)
- 3 sela (12 zuz) would buy a beged le'oreg.

And of course a kid goat is 2 zuzei.

So, 200 zuz is exactly poverty level; well below norm, even below
minimum wage, below an average year's income.

Here is my problem: Since 200 zuz is a shiur for getting leqet
shikhechah upei'ah means that 200 zuz is associated with buying food,
and doesn't necessarily cover clothing. Or were people collecting LSP
and selling some of it to buy their other needs?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
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Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter