[Avodah] "Yeshivishe Payes"

[Danny Schoemann]

> On 6/6/07, Danny Schoemann <doniels at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Which doesn't quite match with YD 181:9 which says that the shiur of
> > the Paye is from the [top of the] forehead till the [top of the]
> > jawbone - and this entire width Lo Siga Bo Yad - shouldn't be touched.

On 6/7/07, Marty Bluke <marty.bluke at gmail.com> wrote:
> You have to take the shulchan aruch's words lo siga bo yad in the
> context of the overall sugya and the rishonim.

The phrase "lo siga bo yad" seems to have been coined by the Beis
Yosef - and there he clearly means as you say it does - not to narrow
the width of the Payes.

In the SA it less unambiguous. Proof is the Bach, who maintains that
it refers to the length - and quotes the SA as supporting proof!

> The Rambam seems to
> hold that Min Hatorah, you only violate the issur if you cut off all
> the hair, if you leave even 2 hairs you are not chayav.

The Tur, BY and Bach struggle to explain what precisely is the
Rambam's opinion along with his 4/40 hairs.

> However, Lo Siga Bo Yad is not meant to be taken literally that you
> cannot cut the hair at all. You can clearly cut the hair when it grows
> too long. What is the shiur of hair?

See above.
- According to the BY you may cut it not too short - as in "scissors
like a razor"
- According to the Bach you may cut it once it grows below the skull.
(As the BLY clearly says in the name of the Airzal, on the side of the
SA).

> In other areas of halacha
> (negaim) it is to bend back the hair on itself, therefore you can
> certainly cut the hair to a reasonably short length according to the
> Shulchan Aruch.

Correct, as per the BY and the SA. Not so obvious according to the
Bach's explanation of the SA.
According to the Bach, this would be one more place where the BY
contradicts the SA. This is not all that rare - as strange as that
sounds. (~2 decades ago I was in Kollel where we learnt Tur & SA in
the afternoons - and I noticed this phenomena every so often.)

This of course doesn't answer the original question of where
Yeshivishe Payes started...

- Danny