[Avodah] yishuv EY

[SBA]

From: "Shoshana L. Boublil"
> So, how do they explain the posuk 'vatovou vatetamu es artzi' ?
--
Last I heard, many rabbis used this pasuk to refer to those who live their
lives in Chutz La'aretz, but when they are dead (Avi Avot HaTum'ah) - that's
when they remember Israel and come to be buried here.
>>>>>>>>>>>..

Zev Sero wrote: >Who would those rabbis be, and what gives
>  them the right to use thepasuk in such a way?

From: menucha:     See Yerushalmi kilaim 9,3
----------------------

Klal gadol baTorah - and even more so for debates on this list - as Mori
Verabi, the world renowned posek HaRav Betzalel Stern zt'l (Baal mechaber
Shu't Betzeil haChochmo) regularly asked us young talmidim at the farher -
whenever Rashi or Tosfos mentioned another mesechta - "Hostu nachgeshaut?"
Which is Oberlenderish Yiddish for "Did you look it up?"

Thus I thank Menucha for the source - which I indeed 'nachgeshaut'.

And, as I expected, there are no 'many rabbis' using this pasuk, just a
comment of a single one (Reb Elazer) - to which his colleague replied and
explained the advantage of being buried in EY. End of story.

(Why 'as expected'?
Because if there REALLY was some concern of "many rabbis using
this pasuk to refer to those who live in Chutz La'aretz, but when they
 are dead (Avi Avot HaTum'ah) they remember Israel and come to
be buried here", then we have some major problems not only with the
thousands of good fine Jews who have elected to be buried in EY,
but going back as far as Yaakov Ovinu and Yosef Hatzadik.
And seeing that many gedolei yisroel from ChuL have requested that they
be interred in EY (eg, RAK, RMF, etc etc), I was pretty confident that it
was a - kaveyochul - a 'throwaway' line by Reb Lazar, and definitely not
meant in any way halocho lemaaseh.)

And, BTW, I did a Bar Ilan search for the quote (which also comes up a
couple of time in Midrashim) and can report that  there are FAR more
results using this pasuk against baalei aveireh coming to EY...

But back to the pasuk itself. It seems that some of the posters have
forgotten that 'ein hamikra yotze midei pshutoy'.  Pshutoy being
(Yirmiyeh 2:5)  "Ko omar Hashem ma motzu avoseichem be avel ki
rochaku me'olay..vo'ovi es'chem el eretz hakarmel le'echol piryoh vetuvah
- vatovo'u vetetamu es artzi..."

Besides this pasuk, it would be interesting to hear explanations for
"Umipnei chato'einu galinu miartzeinu".

And of course, the pesukim we say twice a day in Krias Shema "Hishomru
lochem pen yifteh levavcham....ve'avadtem mehera me'al ha'aretz hatovoh.."

SBA











If there was any kind of source and truth to the idea that fearing sins
would exempt one from coming to Israel, rabbis, from Rambam to the GR"A,
including Sh"A and others, wouldn't state categorically that a woman/man can
force their spouse to make Aliyah.

BTW, Rav Zeira that was quoted has an interesting tale connected to him and
Israel.

His rabbi, Rav Yehuda, was concerned with going to Israel.  Despite this R'
Zeira made Aliyah from Bavel.

In fact, it was about him that it was said "Ama Peziza".  The story is that
when R' Zeira reached the river, the ferry had just left, and he had to wait
for it to return to carry him across.

Rav Zeira didn't wait.  He jumped in the river and swam across.

When asked why, he said: Moshe Rabeinu wasn't Zocheh to come to Israel b/c
of a sin he did.  Who can guarantee that while waiting for the ferry I
wouldn't commit a sin and forfit the right to enter Israel?!

He later fasted to forget Torah Chutz La'aretz...

Rav Zeira was apparently more concerned about sins he might do in chutz
L'aretz which would prevent him from making aliyah, and he had no concerns
about any sins he might perform in Israel.  Food for thought.



From: menucha <menu at inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yishuv EY
To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>,
"Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada at bezeqint.net>
Message-ID: <465E4BB2.4050204 at inter.net.il>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

See Yerushalmi kilaim 9,3


From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada at bezeqint.net>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yishuv EY
To: "menucha" <menu at inter.net.il>, "A High-Level Torah Discussion
Group" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Message-ID: <003301c7a353$8395bcb0$0101c80a at VIDEO>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original


As Rn' Menuchaa wrote -- Chazal in the G'mara are the source of this
opinion.

For further discussion of this source (and others) you can see the following
article:

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/sde_chem/malhi-4.htm

"The Mitzva of Settling Israel from a Historical Perspective" by Yirmiyahu
Malachi, from Sde Chemed 5754 7-8.

Find the word "kilayim" to go directly to the discussion on this topic. (The
article is in Hebrew)