[Avodah] SoVar VeKibbel

[mkopinsky at gmail.com]

On 5/25/07, Meir Rabi <meirabi at optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Michael responded:
>
> Sovar v'kibbel ("He thought and he accepted") can only be a halacha in daas,
> and thus can only work in an area where daas is relevant.  In dinei mamonus,
> I have the right to be mochel, so B"D understands that your participating
> implies a thought-out (savar) acceptance (kibel) of the risk.  For dinei
> nefashos, where mechila is irrelevant i.e. daas isn't a p'tur, assumptions
> about daas kol shekein will not generate a p'tur.
>>>>>>
>
>
> Is it not clear that in defining the types of activities that are
> "acceptable and not too risky" like bungee jumping etc., we use people of a
> particular society or culture to make that evaluation? Well, that's
> something to do with diney nefashos and yet we see the mindset of the people
> is critical in establishing the acceptable standards. Surely it is not too
> great a leap to argue that we determine the scales of Shoggeg and Mezzid by
> taking in to account the Sovar Vekibbel of the participants in this
> dangerous game. BTW I assume that Halacha did not forbid playing this game
> because it was, at least in those times, a fairly acceptable risk taking
> behaviour even though it offered no benefit and there was no need to engage
> in such activities.

Even if danger is determined by societal norms (an assertion that I am
entirely unsure of, and would like to see sources about), that is very
different from taking into account the daas of the participants
themselves.  For example, Russian roulette, according to whatever
standards, is not an acceptable risk.  If someone decides to play, his
stupid decision does not make the death be considered shogeg.  Conversely,
two participants in a NASCAR race do put their cars into what normal
people would consider an unacceptable risk.  Their decision does not make
damage to their car be considered oness, but it does get rid of their
right to claim any money, as they knew full well their car could be
totalled.

KT,
Michael