[Avodah] Talmud Torah

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, February 9, 2007 5:15 am, Chana Luntz wrote:
: I am confused. There are indeed two lists in the Mishna in Peah, but
: they come one right after the other (ie eilu dvarim is there as well, in
: the versions of the Mishna I have)...

I can't speak to your versions, but the second list is woven from the gemara
in Shabbos and a beraisa. It is because it's woven that the Ashkenazi and
Sepharadi nusachos differ; Ashkenazim include hachnasas kallah, levayas
hameis, and v'iyun tefillah, the Rambam and my Sepharadi siddur do not.

There is a machloqes whether "veha'arev" is a second of three birchos haTorah,
or if it's the body of the first berakhah, a continuation of "la'asoq bedivrei
Torah. On the weight of the first opinion, we make sure to learn from all
three chalaqim of talmud Torah -- miqra, mishnah and gemara. The second eilu
devarim is the gemara. (Alternatively, the two berakhos correspond to TSBK and
TSBP.)

The Bartenura holds that "ein lahem shiur" refers to a lack of minimum shi'ur
deOraisa. Which would mean that if talmud Torah has a minimum shi'ur, the
Bartenura would hold it's deRabbanan.

I agree with the general direction of RnCL's position (and open questions),
and would just comment on a detail.

:> And on Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:30:43AM -0000, RnCL wrote:
:>: Well the halachic sources when quoting the reference phrase
:>: it slightly differently and add a critical word "shikul",

Including Tosafos on Shabbos.

:>:                                                          which does
:>: rather suggest we are talking about heavenly scales rather than earthly
:>: doings - eg the language of the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah siman 246 si'if
:>: 18) "talmud torah shikul kneged kol hamitzvos" ...

:> But I thought the mishnah said I can't know secharan shel
:> mitzvos, and thus can't choose a chamurah over a qulah.

: It is a good kasha, although one could answer that maybe the exception
: proves the rule.  Or, as I implicitly suggested at the end of my
: analysis last time, maybe the idea is that it is supposed to weigh on
: the mind while you are performing other mitzvos (see what I said there
: in comparision with kibud av).

Side note: "The exception which proves the rule" only works if the exception
was explicitly made. Then one can assume the rule holds in general, for
otherwise why would anyone bother making a statement about this case? So it
doesn't quite work here.

RYBS writes on "hadran" that "lo sisnasei minach" refers to the fact that even
if I'm not consciously thinking about the Torah learned, it is still within
me, part of me.

Dr Nathan Birnbaum expresses this idea more forcefully in HaOlim's motto of
"Da'as, Rachamim, Tif'eres" as explained in Am Hashem p. 109 -- which I do not
have access to and am relying on RYGB's summary. Tif'eres is the total
transformation of the self through the Torah learned. So that one's entire
life and culture is informed by Torah even to the extent of having
particularly Jewish music and art.

There was a talmid in Slabodka who made a siyum on shas. The Alter heard
something he considered undue boasting about having gone through shas. He
retorted, "It's not how many times you go through sha"s, it's how many times
sha"s goes through you!" Tif'eres.

The Zohar says something similar about Chanokh's departure from the world. The
pasuq (Ber 5:24) reads "Vayis-haleikh Chanokh es haE-lokim ve'einenu, ki
laqakh oso E-lokim." The Zohar describes this leqikhah as an ascent similar to
Eliyahu haNavi's. Chanokh was a shoemaker. When sowing the soles to the
uppers, with each stitch he unified the upper and lower worlds. And so, he
completed his life and traversed that unity without death.

Chanokh didn't have to be sitting in front of a seifer lehagos bo yomam valylah.

I would suggest that perhaps vehagisa isn't veshinanta or velamadta. Rather,
it's saying that any thinking you do, whether before a seifer or not, is
different because lo sisnasei minach.

This is similar to RnCL's "weigh on your mind", but I think it goes much
further than her intent. (As far as I am guessing at that intent.)

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter