[Avodah] zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos

[Zev Sero]

Michael Kopinsky wrote:
> RZS writes:
>>  
>>>> So it remains theoretically *possible* that the stars visible  before
>> 4 millin are all what Chazal called "gedolim", and only the ones  that
>> become visible then are "beinonim", and perhaps the "kochavim  ketanim"
>> are ones that are too small or distant for us *ever* to see with  the
>> naked eye <<
> 
> Another point for you New Yorkers (or other big city people) to keep in 
> mind, is that stars come out a lot earlier, and a lot more of them are 
> visible, outside the city.  As someone who has done a lot of camping, I 
> can assure that by  72 minutes after shkia, there are MANY MANY stars out, 
> and there's no way you can say that every thing that's out by then is 
> medium.

I keep having to make this point, though I don't think I was at all
unclear: I am *not* trying to convince anyone that this *is* what
Chazal meant by "kochavim benonim".  "Shitat RT" is clearly "neged
hachush", for many reasons, and therefore is no longer followed by
many/most people.  But the question was how it could ever have been
accepted by anyone.  Many rishonim did accept it, and the question
was raised how they could possibly have understood the 3-stars rule,
when anyone can see that at "laila deRT" there are many more than
3 stars.

To this I suggest that they may have thought that perhaps by
"benonim" Chazal meant those stars that only become visible at
that time, and by "ketanim" they meant stars that are too faint to
see even then, while all the myriad stars that are visible earlier
were considered by Chazal to be "gedolim".  The rishonim need not
have found this the most obvious interpretation, they need merely
have found it plausible enough to accept it bedochek, because
that was the only way it *could* be reconciled with what they
believed the gemara to be saying about 4 millin.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev at sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                      	                          - Clarence Thomas