[Avodah] More on Mitzvos and Iyun

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:32:51 EST, RYGB wrote:
: I have an ongoing debate with one of my colleagues at MTA. Were he not
: Jewish, he would be Catholic, and he believes that a la Catholicism,
: mitzvos are meant to have a salvational effect on us.

But then around an hour later (16:28:07) he forwarded this clarification from
his colleague:
:> I think this is a fair representation of my view of mitzvos but I'd
:> like to have "salvific" defined as "metaphysical effect upon the
:> neshamah and upon the spiritual fabric of the cosmos leading to the
:> soul achieving a better place after death."

Now I compare this to RYGB's description of his own position in the first email:
: I, OTOH, believe that mitzvos are meant to have a refining impact on us
: - and that applies even to the most obscure and mystical rites we possess.

I see very little difference. I am not sure how Rav Colleague's (RC)
"metaphysical effect on the neshmah" which "lead[s] to the soul achieving a
better place after death" differs from RYBS's "refining impact.

The differences are:
1- RC writes in terms of sechar va'onesh where RYGB doesn't go there. Not sure
if this is a substansive disagreement.

2- RC adds in about the impact of the mitzvah beyond the individual doing it,
"metaphysical effect ... upon the spiritual fabric of the cosmos". This
actually makes his position seem /less/ salvific in a Xian sense.

3- RYGB is more specific about what changes in the soul, and thus has an
explanation that focuses more on mitzvos whose impact is comprehensible. He
therefore needs to add that it "applies even" to what I take to be chuqim.

I think it's this third point that is the source of the chiluq WRT gemara
be'iyun.

However, I think there is a totally different assumption going on here that is
more fundamental.

: On this basis, [RC] justifies the teaching of Gemara b'Iyun to lower-track
: students - viz., it has a salvific effect even if they gain little
: enlightenment from it.

: As such, I have great difficulty justifying the almost pointless
: instruction of the lower levels in Gemara b'Iyun. Better to teach them
: Sefer HaChinuch.

However, you do see that there is a refining impact to chuqim of even the most
obscure and mystical nature. If you do not expect to be able to know every
means of refinement, why do you limit the value of learning to things you can
understand?

Perhaps be'iyun works on a choq level for them? I think RC assumes it does,
and that's the real difference between you. As he writes:
:> Either it's all supra rational or its just silly.

I also have comments on the topic of educational syllabus for Areivim.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter