[Avodah] [Areivim] vashti

[Micha Berger]

Could someone post a maqor that says that the default assumption when dealing
with a medrash that is "fantastical" is to assume it IS historical? Or even
that the majority are

We have a list of rishonim compiled a year back who say otherwise: the Rambam
(who, kedarko beqodesh, goes as far as berating those who take them
historically), the Ritva, the Maharsha, the Maharal, the Gra...

On Fri, March 2, 2007 9:38 am, Zev Sero wrote:
:> Actually, it defies every maqor that speaks of hesteir panim.
>
:> The whole mehalekh we consistently take to understanding Purim *requires*
:> a lack of any supernatural events.

: Not really.  Eliyahu informing Mordechai about Haman's decree.  Esther's
: appearing beautiful to everyone, especially Achashverosh, despite her
: age and unattractiveness, Achashverosh's hand extending the sceptre to
: Esther when he intended not to; these are all miracles, just not public
: spectacular ones....

Of course, if medrashim that are "fantastical" are meshalim, then those aren't
ra'ayos either.

Besides, in this case, is the tail even a full-blown mashal, or an idiom? Was
her tail simply idiom for being overweight, like growing a "spare tire", or
some other thing that embarasses her?


The question of whether a private lema'alah min hateva miracle defies hesteir
panim is an interesting one.

In the Alter of Slabodka's hashkafah, each person has their own reality
created for them. "Bishvili nivra ha'olam." The Borei allows these distinct
realities to interact, since that allows us to perform chessed for each other
-- or ch"v abuse the gift. Sounds very Berkleyian, except that I do not know
where the AS is not saying these distinct realities are because only our
sensory impressions exist. I get the understanding -- trying to follow subtle
philosophy in what is r"l not my first language -- that "nivra ha'olam" my
personal world is really "out there".

IOW, Bishop Berkley said that all that exists is what G-d puts into our
senses, and thus if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to
hear it, there is no tree, no forest, and no -- it doesn't make a sound.

As I understand him, the AS would say it does make a sound, but we need to ask
which people's worlds contain this forest.

It's only in the case of nissim that worlds can go widely disjoint. Is that
only lemaalah min hateva? I don't know. I'm inclined to guess that it is (but
remember, I'm not 100% sure I got the Or haTzafun correct), since REED is a
talmid of this derekh, and he holds that all of teva is a pattern to the
nissim nistarim.

To get back from the philosophy detour...

Der Alter could say that a miracle in Vashti's world that Jews don't know
about may not defy the concept of hesteir panim for the Jews.

In other ontologies, though, most people would assume "hesteir panim" and
strict compliance to teva are identical. That would be my default position to
be pushed from which I would want a ra'ayah.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter