[Avodah] Chatzot and location

[chaim.tatel at yahoo.com]

Zev,
Nice try. But that doesn't explain, how, in this day of "atomic" clocks and UTC (Coordinated Universal Time) how Chatzot varies as much as 30 minutes in my chart. Latitude and Longitude make a difference.

Daylight in Seattle varies from 9:15 hours today (Jan 26) to 15:12 hours on July 26.

BTW, "Camp time" is actually "standard time" not "daylight time."

Chaim

----- Original Message ----
From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
To: Chaim Tatel <chaim.tatel at yahoo.com>; A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:27:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Chatzot and location

Chaim Tatel wrote:
> On 1/21/07, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:

>> Time zones are an artificial creation, which must of course be taken
>> into account.  But the natural time of chatzot on a given date is the
>> same all over the world.

> Zev, I have to strongly disagree.
> Chatzot on given dates *DO* depend on location on earth.
> I made a small chart to prove this (data comes from HEBDATE).
> I couldn't get it to look right in email, so I put it in my website:
> http://chaimyt.tripod.com/noon.htm
> Chatzot varies by location, and time of year.

The times you give have been adjusted for standard time (or "railroad
time", as it used to be known), which is a recent invention, and just
as artificial as daylight saving time, or "camp time".

Suppose  you chose to keep your watch 4 minutes behind.  It is obvious
that you would then have to subtract 4 minutes from all zemanim.  You
wouldn't conclude that the zemanim vary from person to person, and that
shabbat comes in for you 4 minutes earlier; instead you'd recognise that
the metziut hasn't changed, and that the 4 minutes' adjustment you must
make is purely an artifact of your choosing to keep your own personal
"time zone".

Now suppose your entire shul decided to keep their watches 4 minutes
behind.  The sun would, of course, take no more notice than it did when
this was just your personal shtick.  All mitpalelim would have to
subtract 4 minutes from all their zemanim, because the metziut wouldn't
have changed, but their watches would have.

Now suppose the entire population of New York joined in this shtick,
and all decided to turn their watches back 4 minutes.  Would that
change the metziut, would it finally convince the sun to alter its
path in the sky, and rise 4 minutes later, because "it's too early"?
Of course not.  Everyone would simply have to subtract 4 minutes from
all published zemanim, until they reprinted the calendars to reflect
this pecularity.

Well, guess what, that is exactly what New Yorkers in fact do.
A bit over a century ago the railroads announced that their clocks
in New York would be moved back 4 minutes, and anyone who wanted
to catch a train on time would have to do the same.  And since then
New Yorkers have kept their watches 4 minutes behind.  So if today
chatzot was at 12:12, New Yorkers' watches all said 12:08 (at least,
those that were "correct").  That didn't change the metziut, it's
just an artificial adjustment that must be made to watches that are
deliberately kept out of sync with the natural time.  Seattleites,
OTOH, keep their watches 9 minutes ahead, so when chatzot happened
over there, at 12:12, their watches said 12:21.  Again, the change
wasn't in the metziut but in their watches.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev at sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                     - Clarence Thomas







 
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