[Avodah] Talmud Torah

[Chana Luntz]

I have sent this to avodah, because after I sent my original response to
you, I discovered that the topic had moved to avodah:
> 
> From: "Chana Luntz" <> ..the gemora goes on to..
> > Rava engaged in Torah only, and lived until 40 and Abaye engaged in 
> > both torah and gimilus chassadim and lived until 60.  ..
>  ...Abaye must have been using some
> > of his other time, time that Rava was using to engage in 
> talmid torah, 
> > to do what might be considered discretionary gilimus chassadim. ..
>  one rather has to conclude that 
> > Hashem poskened like Abaye in this case and that the gemora brought 
> > the story and the ages until which they lived to make that clear ..
> 
> So how do you learn pshat in 'vetalmud torah keneged kulom"?

Well the halachic sources when quoting the reference phrase it slightly
differently and add a critical word "shikul", which does rather suggest
we are talking about heavenly scales rather than earthly doings - eg the
language of the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah siman 246 si'if 18) "talmud
torah shikul kneged kol hamitzvos" .    The longer form in the Tur is
"v'ain lecha mitzvah b'kol hamitzvos kulan shehi shkula kneged talmid
torah ele talmud torah keneged kol hamitzvos kulan shehatalmud mevi
l'yade ma'aseh".  And the nose keliim, as well as referring to your
mishna, also refer back to the gemora in kiddushin 40b in which they
were asked which is greater talmud torah or ma'asim and while Rabbi
Tarfon said ma'asim, rabbi Akiva said talmud torah because talmud torah
brings lyade ma'asim.  Note also that from Megila 3a that in order to
hear the megila, the cohanim etc are mevatel from the avodah, and in
order to do the avodah, one is mevatel from talmud torah so as kal
vchomer one is mevatel talmud torah.  On the other hand, the Shulchan
Aruch does bring l'halacha (as does the Tur) that one is only to be
mevatel from talmud torah for mitzvos that cannot be done by way of
others. 

And various of the meforshim grapple with the question: - what do you
mean that talmud torah is greater if all it does is bring you to ma'asim
and it keeps being pushed off for various mitzvos.  One answer (see
Tosphos there) is that we are dealing with am ha'aratzim who have never
learnt, and come to ask which they should do first - and since an am
ha'aretz cannot be a chassid, he should clearly learn first so that he
knows what to do.  However this rather seems to imply that we are
considering all the bochrim in yeshiva who are not doing any chessed
because of the need to do talmud torah am ha'aretzim.  Another answer is
brought in the Bach (inter alia) which is that the reason one has has to
drop the talmud torah for a while is because one can always come back to
his talmud torah after he had done the mitzvah such as listen to megila,
but if the time for listening to megila passes, then that mitzvah has
been completely lost.  It is almost as though the very fact that the
mitzvah of Talmud Torah is so weighty and can be done at any time of the
day and night means that so long as one does some talmud torah then if
you do the other mitzvos as well you end up getting the reward of talmud
torah plus the other mitzvos, whereas if you just do talmud torah the
other mitzvos, being less weighty, are liable to fly out of your hands
and get more easily lost.  Ie no matter how important the one is, talmud
torah plus other mitzvos is better than talmud torah and the other
mitzvos being lost.

The Drisha there has an explanation that is probably more to your taste,
which is that if you were actually mekayim all 613 mitzvos, yes that
would outweigh talmud torah, but that talmud torah outweighs one or two
mitzvos because it will end up bringing you to perform many many mitzvos
(ie he seems to be saying that while we have a concept of one mitzvah
causing another, this is not as strong for a standard mitzvah as for
talmud torah).  That still seems to presuppose, however, that the ideal
is to get to many mitzva performance, not to be in talmud torah
indefinitely and never reach the next stage.

One thought I had - which was suggested to me by the reference in the
shach siman 246 si'if katan 18 that one should go look at Yoreh Deah
siman 240 si'if 12.  If you go there, you discover that the reference is
to the halachos of kibud av v'aim.  And the si'if contains very similar
language to that regarding talmud torah in a circumstance where the
father says to the son, bring me some water, and the son also has in
front of him other mitzvos that need doing or they will be lost - if
those other mitzvos can be done by others, then he should let the others
do the mitzvah and attend to his father, but if there aren't others
there to attend to the mitzva, he should do the mitzvah first, and only
then return to performing kibud av.  Now why do we say that one should
do the mitzvah first, - because when it comes to a question of whose
kavod should come first, rav or talmid, the rav comes first, and
therefore kavod shamayim comes first.  So can we say that (and this is
where I am going off on my own a bit here I think) that while there are
various mitzvos associated with talmud torah (as I think RDE has
suggested in the name of RMF) that one can understand the requirement
not merely to say Shema twice daily but to learn day and night as in a
way being about kavod hatorah and being the fundamental way of giving
kavod hatorah  (and perhaps giving kavod to talmidei chachamim, which is
derived from kavod hatorah, is really a secondary derivation since they
are those who spend their lives giving the primary kavod).  And that
while you are supposed to, like with one's father, drop doing the acts
of kavod in order to do other mitzvos.  If your father asked you for a
glass of water but you had to do something else first, you would still
spend the whole time thinking and worrying about getting your father
that water and it would certainly weigh on your mind (ie kind of like
RMF's reference to focus of your life). But you are still supposed to go
off and do the other mitzvos and all the other things you have to do.
Anyhow, I haven't seen this anywhere, I was just struck by the
similarity of language and it seemed to fit. 
> 
> SBA

Regards

Chana