[Avodah] VeHaGita - Proof....sources and quotes - 2

[SBA]

From: "Daniel Eidensohn" <>
> Reb' Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
Who was it that said that saying Shma in the morning and Shma in the
> > evening is sufficient to be Yotzeh "Vehagita Bo Yomam VaLayla"?  Last I
> > checked, it was in the G'mara...

 SBA> That is a bedieved - and not lekatchileh.

: "Shoshana L. Boublil"  Proof?....sources and quotes).

> Igros Moshe(YD IV 36.3 page 223 discusses the issue of Menachos (99b).
> He says that in fact there are two separate mitzvos of Torah study 1) To
> learn all of the written and oral Torah 2) to learn twice a day. He
> cites the Rambam (Talmud Torah 1:8) that Shema does not count for Torah
> study but one must learn twice a day.
--

See the SA Harav (Hil TT 3 in Kuntres Achron - dh Vehinei Chiluk) where he
explains that Rashbi's saying that one can be yotze with KS twice daily,
refers to a person who has already studied (and knows) kol hatorah kulo.

================

> SBA  That is a bedieved - and not lekatchileh.

RSB: Proof?....sources and quotes).

OK, let's start again (and I should have listened to my own advice and
looked up the sources more thoroughly and carefully. It would have saved a
lot of to-and-froing.

ShA, YD 246:1 (in fact, the very 1st seef of Hilchos Talmud Torah)
 in the Rema:
"UBESHAAS HADECHAK afilu lo kara rak KS shachris ve'arvis 'lo yomishu
mipicho' korinen lei.."

Now unless you can come up with some proof ("sources and quotes") that there
is a real difference between 'bedieved' and 'beshaas hadchak',
I would say this debate is closed.

================
>>RSB: And this is highly insulting. And PUBLIC.
----
In that case I apologise - in public.


RSB: Many use the sentence of "VeHagita" to demand that men learn day and
night as much as possible as an halachic imperitive.  The situation is not
that people won't learn, but rather, this idea is used in an almost abusive
form to force people who are tortured by this demand of full time study for
years
==========

You've got me all wrong if you think that I am a supporter of the 'Kollel
for life' shitah. Far from it.
But I do think that bachurim - when enrolled in a yeshiva should concentrate
on their studies rather than join social welfare programs - as per Sherut
Leumi girls.
And THAT, BTW, was what we were talking about before you
somehow drifted sideways.

SBA