[Avodah] Sinai - Rambam - heard all or nothing?

[Micha Berger]

Back in v5n3 (6-Dec, I'm still catching up on some replies, RDE wrote:
: Rashba (4:234): ...
:           Therefore if G-d had spoken with a physical voice ...
:                                 it would not have removed their original
: doubts. It would not have been more impressive than the Splitting of the
: Sea and so therefore how would it have helped. Therefore it was obvious
: that that voice that G?d spoke to Moshe with must have been prophetic
: rather than physical....

The Rashba joins the Rambam in the shitah that nevu'ah is the experience of
something real but non-physical. (As opposed to the belief that it's a message
from G-d; proposed by the Abarbanel to anwer the Ramban's question on the
Rambam's peshat in the three mal'akhim visiting Avraham, and on Avodah I
applied to explain the machloqes about the the 'Man' in the throne of parashas
Mishpatim and the Merkavah.)

: Avodas HaKodesh(4:31): Rambam (Moreh Nevuchim 2:33) says that the
: awesome sound which Israel heard at Sinai and through which the Torah
: was given -- was created. He explains this in Moreh Nevuchim (1:65): ...
: ?This is especially so since all our people agree that the Torah - the
: words ascribed to Him ? was itself created. In fact speech which is
: attributed to Him ? that which Moshe heard ? was created and produced by
: G?d in the same manner that He created and produced everything else in
: the universe.? The intent according the commentaries is that if He has
: speech then the Torah is His speech and since the Torah is created He
: has no speech?.The explanation of the Rambam is a dark mountain which
: causes the feet of the believers to stumble and causes them to deviate
: from the path of the Torah. That is because they have doubts about this
: Voice which the Rambam says was created....

I think the Avodas haQodesh's question also disappears when we take the
Abarbanel's shitah that the Rambam associates nevu'ah with the perception of
created but non-physical things.

:> The Moreh Nevuchim does not say that the people did not hear G-d
:> speaking, only that although they heard his Voice, they were not at
:> the prophetic level to make out the words....

: I don't understand your point. If they heard a sound associated with
: Gd's speaking than in a technical sense they heard G-d speaking. However
: the proof of Mishneh Torah is only a proof if they heard G-d's words.
: Moreh Nevuchim rules out that possibility. Your understanding is that
: the sound was a miraculous sound and that convinced them. But the Rambam
: clearly says that miracles are not the basis of their belief in Moshe's
: prophecy.

Not really. If they could experience the spiritual words but not directly, it
wouldn't just be an undifferentiated Qol. It's not like hearing someone from
the next room and the words being muffled. Rather, the experience would be
clothed in dimyon, as per all lesser-quality nevu'ah. That is the Rambam's
middle ground between the subject line's "all or nothing". Which would mean
that what Moshe heard, they would see through mashal. Then they could assess
if the pisron would match the experience. No?

I would think this is mukhrach misevara, EXCEPT that it's nowhere in the
Rambam's description.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter