[Avodah] Knowledge of Good and Bad

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, November 2, 2006 9:43 am, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
: Let's begin with the idea that in the beginning, Adam and Chava only
: knew emes and sheker, and did not understand tov and ra until after
: eating from the tree.

I am not sure this is a given. Rav Dessler writes that their yeitzer hara was
externalized (in the nachash), but doesn't say they didn't understand the
concept. Leshitaso, they understood the concepts of good and evil, but the
battle wasn't internalized until the cheit.

I would assume REED would point to the fact that da'as implies intimacy, and
lada'as therefore isn't merely to understand objectively, in the abstract.

I suggested that this shtims with the Rambam, since the role of an external
yeitzer hara would therefore be to convince them of the goodness of something
that was overall evil, and thus their internal battle would be emes vasheqer.

That's the basic nequdah of our dispute about how to understand the cheit.

The second, less primary, issue is whether their having emotion should or
shouldn't play a role in this discussion.

: A long time ago, I understood this in a manner very reminiscent of
: Mr. Spock from Star Trek, that they had no emotions or opinions, and
: made their decisions in a purely logical manner....

Not all emotions are ta'avos. Neither are all opinions. For that matter, logic
alone can't bring you conclusions. Logic manipulates first principles, your
accepted postulates, to produce further truths. To reach a conclusion, you
need another mechanism to give you those first principles. Observation is
colored by the assumptions brought by the observer, and so even with straight
logic they can reach a falsehood.

:                                                 However, Chava's
: observation - prior to eating - that the fruit was "tov l'maachal"
: has shown me that they *did* have emotions and opinions prior to
: eating. This was my (unstated) reason for beginning this thread,
: whose purpose is to suggest that "tov v'ra" should not be translated
: as "good and bad", but as "right and wrong".

Also, as I noted, Adam was lonely until Chavah was separated off of him.
That's an emotion. And I agree that tov vara must be on the moral plane, not
also the functional and aesthetic ones.

But I disagree with your middle step. Someone can assess something as being
functionally good without having emotions. Aesthetics are a blurrier area; is
prettiness (or tastiness) an emotional thing, or an abstract property shared
by things which cause a common emotion?

: and RMB asked:
:> How? Why would Adam and Chava possibly believe that
:> disobeying the Source of everything would bring benefit?
:> ... I still wonder why Chava would possibly lack the
:> knowledge that doing G-d's will must in the long run lead
:> to more benefit than would defying it.

: Chava lacked that knowledge because no one had taught it to her.

My primary objection is that REED assumes they did understand good and evil.

Secondarily, it's trivial to know that her Maker's will should be more
important than that of a fellow creature. Particularly to someone whose
husband chatted with Hashem; she wouldn't have had uncertainty about His
reality. It's therefore hard to surmise her missing that ranking of authority.

The nachash instead sold her on the idea that she could better serve Hashem if
she would eat the fruit, but Hashem wanted to protector from the personal
risk. (And it just struck me -- if that was his argument, was the nachash
necessarily lying? I could see arguing either way.)

: Why didn't she give more credence to the Creator? I'm not sure, but
: my guess is that although they had emotions and desires, that relates
: to ideas like "which do I enjoy more", or "which is more beneficial".
: The topic here is a different emotion, namely: trust.

Judging the reliability of a source, or Source, isn't necessarily emotion.
Going with the One Who actually made the facts in question should be
self-evident. I wouldn't assume Chava was sufficiently dull to miss that
point.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter