[Avodah] honey [was: Hakafot on Shmini Atzeret]

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 02:47:05PM -0500, Jonathan Baker wrote:
: As for the last reason, well, isn't that what a lot of drashot are?  We 
: know the halacha is X, now how is that derived from the psukim?
: A lot of this argument is about just that kind of position: it is
: "common knowledge" that bee-honey is permitted only because of confusion
: in the word "dvash" with date-honey, but now that we're trying to look
: for textual evidence, it's not so clear-cut.

Which is my point: The threashold of plausibility for derashos of common
cases shouldn't be considered too high. Rare cases, e.g. the conversion
of a Moavis, are a different story. But when the role is connecting
known to known?

: A major rav & I have been arguing about this offline, based on the 
: references in Shmuel and Shoftim.  As of our last exchange, I argued
: that the two references quoted are 
:   a) late (Shimshon is the last judge before the Eli-Shmuel-Saul-David
:      narrative), about 300-400 years after entry into the Land;

While it's very possible that a word change in meaning over that span,
most words do not. For this to be a question one can't operate from
"it could have changed", but rather prove it did. Otherwise, why assume
the gemara erred in thinking devash was broader in meaning in lashon
hachumash? Just assume that like most words, this one didn't change in
meaning.

:   b) qualified: by Shimshon it specifies dvash from dvorim (why not dvorot?),
:      and with Yonatan:
:      i)  it's again qualified as y'arat dvash, or

In the latter case, not really. The devash isn't modified, the ya'ar
is. But either way, qualification would show that the word is otherwise
ambiguous (which isn't under contention). Qualification isn't always
used to indicate the more rare meaning; particularly if the fact that
it's bee honey is relavent to the story and something the naarator would
therefore stress.

:      ii) it's not even clear that it is dvash dvorim, the commentators are
:          divided whether it's bee honey or some plant syrup or sap (cf.
:          Zev's posts).

Which I addressed by saying it's irrelevant, if the term meant both
honey and a sweat nectar. The fact that EY can be blessed with the word
devash without qualification shows that it doesn't carry negative
connotations (such as including issur).

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv