[Avodah] 12 Step Programs

[Moshe Yehuda Gluck]

> On Thu, October 12, 2006 1:06 am, R Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:
> :                              I understand M'sayin Oso as excluding a
> complete
> : spiritual makeover with no effort on the supplicant's part (as I think
> you
> : do) in the context of your standard Bah L'taher, who is taking concrete
> : steps to Teshuvah and needs some assistance. I think that the Maharsha,
> when
> : he applies this Chazal to someone who isn't doing anything other than
> : Davening to Hashem to make him return in Teshuvah, does not mean to
> limit
> : this person to getting only assistance....
R'MB: 
> Doesn't this require ignoring the literal meaning of the word "mesayin"?
> The
> Aramaic beseyata diShmaya is a loose translation of be'ezras Hashem.
> Mesayei'a
> lidevar aveirah doesn't do the aveirah for the other person. The word
> means
> help; how can the Maharsha use the word and be discussing "doing for"
> rather
> than assisting?

The Maharsha is quoting the word "M'sayin" from a Chazal that is referring
to a situation where one needs ASSISTANCE to do Teshuva, but the Maharsha is
(in this sugya) talking about someone who needs MORE than assistance - in
fact he is asking Hashem to return him in Teshuva. Compare to the third
situation that the Maharsha is even more bothered by - that of someone
Davening that SOMEONE ELSE should return in Teshuva. (BTW, the Maharsha
doesn't answer that - he just says V'yesh L'yasheiv. If anyone would care
to, I'd appreciate it.)

 
<SNIP>
R'MB:
> Again, I'm viewing the causality in the reverse. Ha'adam nif'al lefi
> pe'ulosav, and the sechar/onesh is a consequence of who he is ba'asher hu
> sham. Thus, it's not a question of being rewarded for a given action, but
> the
> resulting person who was the impact of the chain of mitzavos by the nature
> of
> being better will consequently be capable of receiving more of His Tov.
<SNIP> 
> The question is based on an accounting-payoff mentality. But once looks at
> sechar in terms of the payoff of spiritual fitness, your question wouldn't
> arise. Hashem tells you that doing these 613 things makes you fit, and
> thus
> more able to receive tov. Which is why the Zohar calls them the 613 itin.

I hear, and ZGG, indeed! But, what are "itin"?

KT,
MYG