[Avodah] History of Havarah

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:00:56 EST, RnTK <T613K at aol.com> wrote:
> RMB:
>>I'm not sure if it's possible for it  to be a physical speech
>> defect. ... If  they really lacked the mobility ... they would have
>> lost half the alphabet, not to mention having a hard time  drinking.

> I don't know why you would say that a speech defect must be either learned
> (like an accent) OR the result of a physical malformation....

Since you're forcing me to look at my own position in more depth:
I was arguing that it's either physical or habit, and if the habit is common
in one population that habit must have been learned. For that matter, I would
say that a habit that is learned through imitation /is/ an accent.

Lisps and r/w switches are because those are hard articulations. Toddlers often
get it wrong and since they are not motivated to fix it if they're understood,
some of them won't unlearn it before it's well ingrained.

BTW, the distinction between sounds is learned. Israelis really can't hear the
/i/ /ee/ difference as readily as Americans, and some who never were exposed to
another language until adultood never do. Similarly Japanese speakers and /l/
vs /r/; Japanese has a single phoneme that makes two sounds similar to each (but
more like things in between) depending on context, so they associate those sounds
with a single meaning. They lose the ability to differentiate. Another example:
Russians need to learn v vs w. Or when my Indian co workers try to show me some
of the differences between their letters and I just can't hear it.

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:41:49 -0800 (PST), afolger at aishdas.org wrote:
> RMB wrote: <<1- Sounds dropped because they do not exist in the local
> language, or mutated to the nearest equivalent in the local language. The
> American qamatz, cholamand reish leap to mind.>>
 
> While the mechanism you propose is sound, I wonder, VOS IZ SCHLECHT MIT
> DER AMERIKANISCHE OHSSPRACHE fin choilem in raish?! Actually, some argue
> that they are superior. The American reish may be a reish refuya.

... which (to spell it out) is almost every reish in Tanakh. Only 14 have a
dageish.

I didn't mean to criticise the American /r/ sound, just to spell out its
historical origin, or perhaps rebirth. The American chowlam, though, is a
bit too round, it's a dipthong with a vuv at the end. For those of us who
expect a cholam malei to have a different sound than a cholam chaseir, it's
a likely candidate for the malei. With that one qualification (limiting to
cholam malei) I happen to think both are superior to what my family left
Europe using. ("Superior" being defined as closer to something at least some
shevatim were using during Matan Torah, and hopefully even my own.)

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
micha at aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
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Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln