[Avodah] zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos

[Dov Kay]

<<... those who are noheg "shtot zman" should light then, R"T, for them it 
is their zman", an achtel, a sechxtel etc. (He himself would normally take 
out Shabbos very late, but Mo"S Chanuka he davened by the achtel, and lit by 
the sechxtl >>

Forgive my ignorance.  What is an achtel or a sechxtel?  Eighth or sixth of 
what? The night?  Out of interest, which authorities use this terminology 
(or its Hebrew equivalent)?

<<For those who hold R"T l'iker hadin,>>

Who holds like R"T nowadays m'ikar hadin?  I haven't even seen chassidim 
doing melacha after sh'kiah.  Are you saying that they are merely acting 
l'chumra?

<<The truth is, we don't pasken like the Yeraim, whereas we do pasken like 
R"T (royv rishonim, Sh"O, RaM"O, Baal HaTanya (in sefer, not in siddur), 
Chasam Sofer, Satmar Rov, Klausenberger Rov, Minchas Cohen (in sefer Bein 
HaShmoshes,

The sefer is entitled Minchas Cohen.  Bein haShemashos is a section of that 
sefer, the other section dealing with taaroves

Again, do we in fact pasken like R"T?  Puk chazi mai ama davar.

Incidentally, the Minchas Cohen and Chasam Sofer actually agree that the 
sighting of 3 stars marks the end of bein haShemashos, even before 72 
minutes have elapsed.  LAD, the Minchas Cohen's position is untenable - he 
tries to jibe R"T's 72 minutes (even allowing for latitude and season) with 
the visible reality in Amsterdam, where 3 stars emerge much earlier than 72 
minutes.  He concludes by attributing the discrepancy to the altitude of 
Amsterdam and atmospheric conditions.  I don't believe that this can in fact 
account for the discrepancy he observed.  RMF's position is also very 
difficult for the same reason.  He argues that 72 minutes fits the reality 
in eastern Europe, but not in NYC, so that m'ikar hadin one can take out 
Shabbos earlier than 72 minutes after sh'kiah in NYC.  Apart from the fact 
that R"T, the Ramban and other rishonim did not live in White Russia, they 
were giving the z'man for Eretz Yisrael/Bavel, which Rabbi Yehudah in the 
Gemara was no doubt discussing.

It is also not clear that the Sh"O paskens like Rabeinu Tam, as there 
appears to be a s'tira between his position in Hilchos Shabbos and that in 
Hilchos Mila (see the Shach there).  See the excellent modern sefer 
HaZ'manim B'halacha, who discusses the position of the mechaber, citing 
authorities that he held like the Geonim, as we have evidence that that was 
the minhag in Tzfat in his day.

I also seem to recall ROY arguing that in fact rov rishonim held like the 
Geonim, not R"T.

In any event, this particular machlokes seems to be a classic case of minhag 
Yisroel (at least since WWI) being machria the halacha against the position 
of a substantial number, if not the majority, of rishonim.

<<I personally don't see why we have to be somech on the Levush, and I light
2.5 minutes before the shkia on Friday. (Since I hold R"T iker hadin).>>

I don't follow you.  Do you mean that because you hold like R"T, you do not 
want to be somech on the Levush?  If so, I am sure you are aware that the 
Levush himself held like R"T.  If you mean that you are not too concerned if 
you happen to light after sh'kiah, I think, if you will excuse the pun, that 
you are playing with fire.  I know of no contemporary Orthodox community 
which condones the performance of melacha after sh'kia nowadays, even 
amongst chassidim, but RSBA or RZS will no doubt correct me if I am wrong.

Rov tefutzos yisroel now hold like the Levush m'ikar hadin (and Gra, Baal 
haTanya, etc), unless you happen to be a chossid. The Mishna Berura also 
rules that one may light Shabbos candles from the p'lag of the Levush.

With respect, I think that your maskana is a good example of how a "being 
yotzei l'chol hadeios" approach to halacha can in fact lead in the other 
direction.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

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