[Avodah] Halachic Infertilit

[Arie Folger]

On Thursday, 14. December 2006 16:46, Chana Luntz wrote:
> Yes, but I was asking a different question.  Even if you take the simple
> reading of the Rambam, regardless of his source,I f rov rishonim do not
> agree that bottom line this is the difference between ziva and nida, do
> we not treat the Rambam as a daas yachid, at least for cases of halachic
> infertility ?

I did not imply the opposite, I merely explained what the Rambam's source 
seems to be and that there are other ways of reading Rambam. Anyway, the 
matter is quite irrelevant, since we treat nidut like zivah. On a deOraita 
level there are considerable differences, but practically, we function in the 
post Rabbi Zeira period.

R'nCL:
> > > I don't really understand this - because even if you take the most
> > > machmir position regarding onset, if you get long enough
> > > then you must be out of the yamei ziva and into the yamei niddah, and
> > > most women -  even with short cycles, do do that.

Me:
> > You mean the opposite. If a woman bleeds long enough, she is out of
> > yemei nidah and into yemei zivah. That is fairly obvious. The
> > reverse, however,  isn't true, as once she has the requirement of 7
> > neqiim, she  needs them in
> > order to become tehorah again.

R'nCL:
> No, I do not mean the opposite.
>
> Let my try and explain.  
> <SNIP>
> Now let us suppose that that bleed on day one and following is in fact a
> nida bleed and she does need shiva nekiim.  Well she had them, and does
> that not mean that, assuming her  next bleed is weeks away, she is again
> definitely in her yamei nida by her next bleed.

I am sorry, but I am confused. I don't understand what you want. Since we are 
talking about a woman who, prior to becoming a vadai nidah, was tehorah, 
therefore, mideOraita, there is no doubt and she wouldn't have needed to 
observe shiv'ah neqiyim. Why do you write that "she does need shiva nekiim"? 
And if you mean to say that after Rabbi Zeira she needs 7 neqiyim, how is the 
fact that in a previous menstrual cycle she had observed 7 neqiyim relevant? 
Yet, you imply that what happened last time around is relevant, as you 
write "Well she had them".

> And were the bleed on days 1-5 to be any combination 
> you like of nida and ziva, do you not come to the same conclusion, so
> long as she waits the first shiva nekiim and then there is enough time
> after she finishes bleeding to make sure she is out of any yamei ziva
> that are out there?  Why does this not work according to everyone bar
> the Rambam?

The fact is that your example is confusing and one needs a reasonable amount 
of concentration to follow that you seem to be arguing that Rabbi Yehudah and 
Rabbi Zeira's positions should only be relevant when there is a real safeq 
deOraita. Now, since it requires some mental acrobatics to follow, you will 
readily grasp why it was assumed that most women would most of the time not 
keep track of their menstrual cycles in a sufficiently detailed way to 
*easily* and *consistently* know whether they are at the moment nidot or 
zavot. Hence, 'Hazal decreed a stringency, which was later beefed up by the 
benot Yerushalayim and codified by Rabbi Zeira.

Safeq may have played a role in the early deliberations, but since, we have 
moved on to the level of rabbinic prohobition.

> Now I am not (and assume the Doctor quoted in Ha'aretz) is not assuming
> that she will do this kind of calculation for every period BUT, if she
> is trying to fall pregnant and the ovulation tests are showing she is
> not doing so because she is ovulating during the shiva nekiim, why,
> under the supervision of a Rav, cannot she do this kind of analysis
> until she falls pregnant?

I am not going to claim I can pasqen about whe it is or isn't appropriate to 
override or circumvent an issur deRabbanan meant to protect us from issurei 
karet, but my feeling is and my experience supports that feeling, that we do 
not override issurim deRabbanan, except where there is a clear halakhic 
requirement to (heim amru veheim amru), an exception I cannot find anywhere 
in hilkhot nidah. OTOH, there are other leniencies that may be applicable in 
difficult cases (shortening the waiting time until the hefseq taharah), more 
so for Sefardim than for Ashkenazim (especially taking a shower instead of 
waiting 4/5 days). All of this still involves overriding dearly held 
minhaggim and should thus be discussed with one's rav.

BTW, I find Rav Dr. Benyamin Lau's argument, that often we don't need to go so 
far, asking more she'elot will often suffice to enable a woman to start the 
hefseq taharah earlier, because she may otherwise be excessively ma'hmir with 
certain shades of brown, very convincing.

> <SNIP> ... we are (I am assuming) not talking about the usual case, 
> but about a woman who has proven (and today we have the medical evidence
> via a simple home test) that she is ovulating during the shiva nekiim
> and who is desperate to fall pregnant. 

Your questions are very good, they require further study.

Kol tuv,
--
Arie Folger
Check out my new website http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com