[Avodah] Prophets are infallible?

[Zvi Lampel]

R’ M Cohen <mcohen at touchlogic.com> Wed, 8 Nov 2006 wrote:

> [Re: RDE's question:] Does anyone else state that prophets are fallible?

> see derech HaShem chelek gimel, perek dalad, section 8-11 where he speaks
> extensively about this subject

> how a true prophet can think he rcvd prophecy and he didn't,
> how a true prophet can misunderstand his prophecy,
> how a true prophet can be misled by kochas hatumah to false prophecy
>etc<

WADR, Ramchal here clearly describes those who are victims to these failings as 
false, not true, prophets, such as those the wicked Achav consulted, and those 
who had /not/ yet reached the level of a true prophet--not the true nevi’im 
under discussion, whose prophecies were wrtitten l’doros, such as Yeshaya and 
Yirmiyahu.

(Section 7 may present a stronger reason to attribute imperfection to a true 
navi’s understanding of his prophecy. There the Ramchal points out that a true 
prophet (such as Jonah regarding his understanding of “Ninveh shall be 
overturned”) might only grasp some but not all of the prophecy’s sevreral true 
meanings. (However, the Malbim’s yesod that a prophet is required to understand 
his prophecy in its simplest sense would provide a different view on the 
prophet’s abilities.)

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: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 (Re: [Avodah] Prophets are infallible?) R. Micha Berger wrote:

On Sun, November 5, 2006 5:52 pm, Zvi Lampel wrote:
: The Sefer Ikarrim says--as does the Torah--that the prophets other than Moses
: perceived and related Hashem's thoughts through imagery and riddles....

[RMB:]
“Nisht azoi pashut. For example, in Yeshaiah's first nevu'ah, he not only
recieved imagery and riddles, but a Voice taught him how to interpret the
nevu'ah.
“I don't know how to resolve this with the Ikkarim.”

ZL:
To evade the problems you raised with the Ikarrim, I carefully avoided saying 
he holds that “the prophets other than Moses perceived and related Hashem's 
thoughts /only/ through imagery and riddles....” I don’t see the Sefer 
HaIkarrim negating the possibility of a navi hearing voices in his prophecy. 
The point is that included in the prophecy are elements that require 
deciphering. This doesn’t contradict the possibility that the deciphering may 
sometimes be provided by Hashem Himself.

[RMB:]
“Shemu'el misidentified his first nevu'ah for Eili calling his name;
it would seem it too was composed of straight words the way people talk to
each other.”

ZL:
The Ramchal in the third perek of the Sefer Derech Hashem RMC pointed out to us 
also provides a solution to this quandary. In par. 3 he writes that  a prophecy 
sometimes comes in stages, and uses Shmuel’s “hearing Eli’s voice” as an 
example of the of prophecy “booting up” to ots full stage (my terminology, not 
his). At the time of Shmuel “hearing” Eli’s voice, It was not yet a full-
fledged prophetic state. The Sefer HaIkarrim does not mention this, but it 
seems complementary to his presentation.

But I have an additional problem in this very chapter of the Ikarrim: an 
apparent internal contradiction, from one sentence to the next:

“All the prophesies of Yirmiah, who lived [in the earlier and therefore 
prophetically-superior period] before the [Temple’s] Destruction, were clear 
and well-explained (m’vu’aros b’er haytiv). And Hashem Yisborach already 
expressed quite sufficiently the difference between Moshe’s prophetic power and 
that of others...that all other prophets besides Moshe speak in riddles lacking 
clarity and visions not accurate (medabrim b’chidos bilti m’vuaros u’mar’os 
bilti amati’im).”

First he says that Yirmiah clearly explained all his prophecies, then he says 
all the prophets besides Moshe (which of course would include Yirmiah) spoke in 
unclear riddles.

One may suggest that he only meant that Yirmiahu's prophecies were /relatively/ 
clear, compared to that of later prophets. Any better suggestions?

I have no answer yet to the questions about the Ikarrim’s shita about the 
nature of prophecy vis-a-vis RMB’s thesis on the position of the Rambam and RSG 
vs. that of the Ramban.

Zvi Lampel