[Avodah] halacha and history

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 07:00:10PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: 1)   *Question:*   Who was the Kohen Gadol at the time of
: Chanukah--Mattisyahu--or his father Yochanan

: *Answer:*  The Sefer *Shalal Rav* (p. 147-148) presents a Machlokes
: Rishonim on this very point.
: 
: Obviously neither were kohen gadol at the time of chanukah. Josephus
: describes the various successions of the kohen gadol  eg alcimus etc...

There was no real kohein gadol. Jason (Yeishua) bought the position for 60
kikar, with another 80 kikar in pledges. He couldn't pay up the pledges,
so Menileus (Choniov) was able to buy it out from under him. Menilaus
also over-promised, and Antiochus ended up appointing Jason's brother,
Lizimakeus (Jewish name unknown). Limzimakeus tried to steal the money
from qodshim, but he was caught at it and killed by Y-mim. So Menilaus
retained the title of high priest.

Meanwhile, runmor reaches Y-m that Antiochus died in battle in Egypt.
It wasn't true, but on that rumor, Jason rounded up an army to depose
Menileus. Malshinim told Achashveirosh that the rumor of his death
was celebrated.ASo, he attacked Y-m. The Misyavnim turned Fifth Column,
and opened the gates for him.

And so his suppression begins.

But none of these people were kohanim gedolim, doing the role al pi
halakhah. Jason -- as his name change indicates -- was himself from
among the Misyavnim.

:                                                                 Some claim
: that he is the Yochanan who lived 80 years and became a sadducee which
: would make the story even more amazing,

:                                         In fact it is not clear that the
: Maccabees came from the "right" branch of priests to be kohen gadol

Saying that the ban on mishmar Yehoyariv was still in force would
rule out both Yochanan and Matisyahu, unless they usurped the title.
The Hasmoneans did, but our mesorah is that the Maccabees merited
the miraculous assistance they received.

The bigger problem would be that is Taanis 27a-b means the family did
not return from Bavel, how are we discussing them being in Modiin?

Taanis 29a lists a number of things in common between churban bayis
rishon and churban bayis sheini: it was erev 9beAv, Sunday, the
year after shemitah, mishmar Yehoyariv, and the leviim were singing,
standing on the duchan. Notice this implies Yehoyariv was back in
EY.

Eirachin 12b says that if Yehoyariv would return, they would be folded
into Yedayah.

Which I think would imply that Yochanan and Matisyahu were considered
part of Yedayah, and only their cousins who remained in Bavel would
not be pulled out of galus for the appointment.

Otherwise, tzarikh iyun. But it has nothing to do with which were more
plausibly KG -- the problem is equal either way.


BTW, R Dovid Cohen (of Flatbush) linked the machloqes about how to parse
Matisyahu ben Yochanan Kohein Gadol, whether it's
    Matisyanu ben Yochanan-Kohein-Gadol (Yochanan was the KG)
or
    Matisyanu-ben-Yochanan Kohein Gadol (Matisyahu was the KG)
to the machloqes about how eidim sign a shetar. Should it be
    ne'um Re'uvein ben Yisrael eid
or
    ne'um Re'uvein eid ben Yisrael

Since we hold the former, we consider the "ben" to be more binding
than titles. So, if the author of Al haNisim holds like we do, it's
Matisyahu who is being called the KG.

>From http://torahmusings.com/2006/01/yohanan-high-priest
by RGS:

   ...
   There are three positions on the identity of the famous Yohanan the
   High Priest:

   1. The Rambam (Introduction to Commentary to the Mishnah) and Roke'ah
   (Hilkhos Hanukah) are of the view that he was the son of Matisyahu,
   of Hanukah fame, evidently named after his own grandfather.

   2. Sefer Yuhasin (1:16) and Seder Ha-Doros (2:Yohanan Kohen Gadol)
   state that Yohanan the High Priest was Matisyahu's father and is the
   one mentioned in the "Al Ha-Nissim."

   3. Later scholars, including Doros Ha-Rishonim (part 2 p. 442) and
   Toledos Tanna'im Ve-Amora'im (vol. 2 p. 688), are of the view that
   Yohanan the High Priest was the grandson of Matisyahu and the son
   of Shimon.
   ...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
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Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot