[Avodah] maaseh avot siman lebanim

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 07:29:35PM -0500, H Lampel via Avodah wrote:
:> Except WRT pesuqim, where you have pashtanim offering peshatim that ignore
:> both Chazal's derashos and sometimes their peshatim as well.

: This is not an exception...

Nor is it a pasuq.

:> I think this
:> is less and less true the further one gets from pure TSBP.

: Not sure what you mean by that.

I mean that a number of the rishonim who give pesat in Tanakh are
perfectly willing to translate and/or explain the pasuq differently than
the gemara did.

The notion of chiddush vs shinui appears to be a TSBP thing. When dealing
with peshat, it doesn't necessarily apply. Which to my mind makes sense.
TSBP is be'al peh in order to be a process; the rules of the process
are specifically for TSBP. For TSBP, like any other exploration of fact,
you try your best to find truth, and are not bound by rules of process.

:> As for the rishonim's guidance... I spoke in the metaphor of momentum,
:> not inertia,

: These are physics terms, and I don't understand how they apply to
: our subject...

Momentum is like your invoking direction, except that momentum also
includes speed and mass. I meant the mashel that in cases where there
is some tolerance in direction, how much leeway you take depends on
how weighty the matter is. And, the bigger the chiddush, the slower you
ought to take things.

: either...)

:>  how the TSBP is flowing down the generations, not a snapshot.

: Deciphering original intent is the initial objective...

So do you believe that when two talmidim of Rav Yochanan argue about what
he meant, not only is one historically wrong, his position isn't Torah
either, no eilu va'eilu, and the SA might be wrong in an absolue sense?

Do the dynamics of dispute only apply to the first time any din deOraisa
is ever debated?


And what about cases where the intent isn't speicifc enough to cover one
understanding over the other? How we apply a gemara about nitzotzos or
gacheles shel mateches to electrical appliances is unlikely to depend
on a detail of Shemu'el's intent -- he likely had nothing in minde
relevant. Rather, it's how those details got filled in during the
centuries since.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha at aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter