[Avodah] What was the point of Avrahams tefilla/debate with Hashem about Sdom?

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 09:41:57AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: I don't have a comprehensive model; as the Rivash said, "ani mitpalel
: leda`at zeh hatinok", I pray without models, just as I speak without
: formal rules of grammar.  Models are descriptive, not prescriptive, and
: therefore, while useful, they are not necessary...

I would say even further... Tefillah is inherently experiential.
Overanalysis may get you to know a lot /about/ tefillah, but it
creates a remove between the person and the experience itelf.

I think Rav Nachman's comments about theology are based on this point.

It's also why I prefer the dialog version of Mesilas Yesharim, even though
the Ramchal apparently rejected it in favor of the chapter version.
The dialog is between two old friends -- the protagonist, called the
chasid, who presents the ideas of MY and an old friend he encounters,
the chakham, who knows a lot of Torah, but at the beginning of the book
doesn't "get" the whole middos thing.

Personally, I need a reminder to stay on the topic of learning zehirus,
rather than learning what zehirus is. The structure of the original
format helps me that way.


On Tue, Nov 03, 2015 at 02:02:37PM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: Lets look at Rashi and see how he explains things here. I would like to
: focus in on 2 Rashis, one at the beginning of the story and one at the end.

I think you are confusing comments describing the structure with those
descriubing the function.

Or are you thinking that Avraham was repeating the mistake of Bavel,
and actually waging war with G-d? The "war" isn't a real war, the defense
arrourney isn't a real attourney. But -- as you note -- he sure sounded
that way.

Obviously G-d does what's best, and not respond to whining human beings
to do anything but. And obviously he doesn't change His "Mind"; it's
a metaphor for doing something different now that He let us do our
little free-will thing.

I don't find your problems so compelling, but since you clearly do,
let me quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:

    How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the
    impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?
		- Sherlock Holmes (The Sign of the Four, ch. 6)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
micha at aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard