[Avodah] What was the point of Avrahams tefilla/debate with Hashem about Sdom?

[Marty Bluke via Avodah]

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> Except that from this position, baqashos aren't begging or persuasion.
...
> The bargaining-looking bit isn't an attempt to pursuade if tefillah
> is never about pursuasion or begging.

> It is Avraham airing just how unfair he thinks it all is. It is his
> maintaining a relationship with the Borei, as an end in itself.

In this case maybe I can see that, that Avraham is simply saying it is
unfair. However, we find both in the Torah itself and in Chazal tefila as
logical arguments that are very hard to understand this way. When Moshe
Rabenu on various occasions tells Hashem not to destroy the Jewish people
because what will the Egyptians say? It is pretty clear that he is
attempting to persuade. How else can you explain it? Similarly in todays
daf in Sotah (7b) the Gemara mentions that Yehuda's bones had no rest in
the Midbar until Moshe Rabenu davened to Hashem saying Yehuda's bones
should have rest because Yehuda is the one who caused Reuven to admit (when
he did whatever he did with Bilha) by providing an example of admission
with Tamar. Clearly Moshe Rabenu was providing logical arguments to
persuade. Otherwise what was he saying? What was the point of mentioning
that Yehuda caused Reuven to admit?


If Avraham was just airing how unfair he thinks it is then he would have
sufficed with saying how can you kill the righteous with the wicked?
However, Avraham enters what seems to be a protracted negotiation with
Hashem starting out at 50 and going down until he reaches 10. That doesn't
sound like just airing out his grievances and just maintaining a
relationship, it sounds like a negotiation and an attempt at persuasion.
Otherwise why persist and negotiate over how many tzadikim there needs to
be see save Sdom?


On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Lisa Liel <lisa at starways.net> wrote:
> He wasn't trying to convince Hashem of anything.  We don't do that.
> Tefillah is all about us and not at all about Hashem...
> And when it comes to the "bargaining" with Avraham, that was more a lesson
> for Avraham (and for us) than anything else.  Making the argument was good
> for Avraham.  I mean, do you think Hashem didn't know that there weren't
> even 10 tzaddikim in Sdom?  At any point during the discussion, He could
> have said, "Look, Abe, let's cut to the chase...."

It would be blasphemous and yet that it was it looks like Avraham was
doing (and what Moshe does in many places). You didn't explain what
Avraham was trying to do by bargaining with Hashem. What was Avraham
trying to accomplish? Why is Avraham bargaining? Didn't Avraham know that
nothing would change? Similarly how do you understand Moshe's prayer to
Hashem when Hashem wants to destroy the Jewish people and Moshe tells
Hashem what will the Egyptians say? What was Moshe's point if not to
change Hashem's mind? How else can you understand that claim?