[Avodah] Ben Noach legal systems (was: Abortion is not Murder?)

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 04:11:46AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
>> I would split this question further: there are the actual issurim of the
>> other six mitzvos, and there is the penalty the courts are expected to mete
>> out when implementing the 7th. Even if one holds that the legal system a
>> Noachide society has to establish must include every din of the Beris Noach,
>> that doesn't mean that they all have to be established as dinei nefashos.

: This split though is not tenable, as this is specifically discussed
: in Sanhedrin 57a, and suggested as a hava mina, but the maskana appears
: to be with Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak- Azharah shelhen hu mitaten.

I am failing to find any mention on Sanhedrin 57a about how nakhriim
are supposed to be judging eachother in the courts they set up. Rather,
it could well be about how our courts should be judging them. But in any
case, it's more about the principle of chiyuv misah and which aveiros
generate it than the actual execution.

More to the point might be 57b. I first thought it was possible that
R' Yaaqov bar Acha at the top of the amud could be taken as the start
of a new sugya. But R' Yishmael's subsequent af al ha'ubarin makes
it clear we're still in the middle of discussing what earns a chiyuv
misah under the 8 mitzvos.

Still, RYBA says that a BN is killed with 1 dayan, with 1 eid, within
hasra'ah -- if the eid is male, even a qarov. If he talking about the
minimum for a Noachide-7th-Law court? If so I would agree that the 7th
mitzvah includes enforcing the other six. But not that they are obligated
to meet out capital punishment, it could be they are licensed to if they
so choose because the person is chayav misah.

Or, RYBA could be saying that a court of 1 Jewish dayan may / is charged
to execute a BN who lives in its jurisdiction on the word of one witness
who could be any non-related man (Yehudi or nachri).

And so I still think there are three ways one could in principle
(not saying any rishonim or acharonim actually take each of the three
positions) understand the Noachide chiyuv of setting up a legal system:

1- to enforce the 7MBN, and RYBA is talind about non-Jewish courts having
   license for capital punishment);

2- to enforce the 7MBN *and* implement the chiyhuv misah (except in normal
   cases of geneivaah); or

3- to create their own laws as necessary for a safe society, and RYBA is
   talking about one Jewish dayan not the 7th mitzvah.
   
   In this 3rd position, the resulting courts could be a fulfillment of
   this particular mitzvah even if they didn't address those of the 7
   mitzvos which are BALM (AZ and birkhas hasheim). And it's possible
   this particular mitzvah wouldn't need to include legally enforcing
   border cases like euthenasia or abortion.

Side question... The gemara quotes R' Yaaqov bar Acha as recorded in
Seifer Agadeta devei Rebbe. What's this doing in a book of aggadeta? And
are we being warned that RYBA only meant to talk halakhah velo lemaaseh?
I just found the citation intriguing.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
micha at aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
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