[Avodah] Forms of Bitul

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:58pm GMT, Rn Chana Luntz wrote:
:>: See this is where I disagree.  I think you need to distinguish the case of
:>: the three pieces of meat and the genuine mixture case, by which I mean eg
:>: the classic case of a drop of milk falling into a meat stew.  In the latter
:>: case, it seems to me it is nothing to do with probabilities, it has to do
:>: with the drop of milk being completely overwhelmed by the meat stew and
:>: thereby disappearing from existence, with its identity and particularly its
:>: taste disappearing...

: And RMB replied:
:> So, if you bring the milk back up to the top, visible be'ein, it can
:> still be eaten with the rest of the chulent?

: No, because if it is visible then the visible bit needs to be removed and if
: it is taste able then if a non Jew would be able to taste it and any part
: that has the taste of milk is assur because of ta'am k'ikar...

So, you're backing off of the notion that the milk was "completely
overwhelmed by the meat stew and thereby disappearing from
existence"? Becuase if so, then the stuff the centrifuge brought to the
top isn't actually "milk", from a halachic perspective.

I would think that is that since rov is described by the SA as being
mevatel beta'aroves, Rashi considers the word for dough (a case of
mixture) to be a term for safeiq, bitul betaaroves and besafeiq come
from the same pasuq, etc... there is no reason to think one is more
"real" than the other. Just as a mi'ut in a mixture loses its identity,
a mi'ut probability loses its identity.

And the notion that probabilities can recombine according to most shitos
in at least some situations doesn't prove a thing one way or the other,
if you're willing to say you can undo bitul betaaroves as well. This is
tangential to my main point, but what we're discussing here.

Similarly, even WRT taaroves, if we're talking about carrying a taaroves
that has a mi'ut tamei, it's like eating all 3 pieces of fat at once --
there is no bitul. It's only touching the mixture or eating one bite at
a time where we have bitul in a taaroves.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
micha at aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm