[Avodah] Bar Mitzvah Doraisa?

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 04:13:40PM -0800, martin brody wrote:
:> But I was wondering... Turning 12 or 13 depends on a chazaqah to
:> approximate the age at which I child would grow 2 saaros...

:> Wouldn't this be an easier reason for saying that bar mitzvah isn't
:> a personal chag? One is merely celebrating reaching a chazaqah, not
:> the primary shiur.

: See Gen 34:25.. Each man took his sword. Levi was 13.See  Rashi on Pirke
: Avot 5:21 and Nazir 29b(V'Rebbi Yosi B'Rebbi Yehudah)

I was paraphrasing Rava on Niddah 46a and 48b. It is generally called
"chazaqah deRava".

There are two machloqesin: whether the chazaqah of age is only lechumerah
or also can be relied on lequlah, and whether the chazaqah is deOraisa
or deRabbanan.

Also, I don't think the RYbRY in Nazir is about when someone becomes
a gadol. According to the 2nd and the final (3rd) understandings of
the machloqes, RYbRY says that vows deOraisa have to do with when the
child can understand what he is saying, not on becoming an adult. Rebbe
says it depends on adulthood, and therefore he requires 2 saaros. There
is no indication we hold like RYbRY over Rebbe, and even if we did --
he is not talking about determining who is a gadol.

I don't have access to Rashi on Avos but Encyc Talmudit ("bar mitzvah")
says he links 13 to the pasur you cited. So does the Bartenura. Machzor
Vitri on "Ben 13 lemitzvos" says "demiben 13 hu meivi sa'aros bezaqein
hatzchton."

OT3H, the Rosh kelal 16 #1 says it's halakhah leMoshe miSinai, like other
shiurim. The Maharal (shu"t #51) and Birkei Yosef OCh 54) say likewise.

I think these latter two shitos are tlaking about the shiur for the
chazaqah (recall, some say the chazaqah is deOraisa), not a din mipenei
atzmah. Otherwise, how do we understand chazaqah deRaba?

I know that lehalakhah, we don't ask a geir qatan to confirm his geirus
on his birthday because we need 2 saaros, not age.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
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