[Avodah] Chillul HaShem when NJ are the observers

[Zev Sero]

On 15/11/2011 5:04 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 04:51:35PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> >  On 15/11/2011 4:48 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> >>  I dispute both your assumption of what minhag avoseinu was,
>> >  Do you dispute that spitting when passing a church is minhag avoseinu?!
> I doubt that spitting when observed by a nachri was done very often. I
> doubt there ever was a minhag Yisrael that carried such risk of piquach
> nefesh.

So they spat discreetly.  They still spat.   Even R Elisha Baal Knafayim
pretended not to be wearing tefillin when the policeman actually
confronted him.


> Nidon didan wasn't the case you cited either. It was spitting when
> passing the galach.

Same thing.  Umordechai lo yichra` velo yishtachaveh.  More chilul
haShem!  He would not have enraged Haman any more by spitting.


> In the meantime, you're not working on a definition of qiddush hasheim
> that relates to the usage in Yuma. (Which is only as aggadic as the
> entire topic.) The embarassing is a chilul hasheim, which appears to
> explicitly validate the position you're arguing against.

Again, it *must* depend on who is doing this judging, and what their
values are.  If their values are straight then they will approve that
which is good and disapprove that which is bad; the gemara you cite
is talking only about such people.  If their values are those of Sdom
then the exact opposite is true.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
zev at sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
		                            - Yitzchak Rabin