[Avodah] More Tzaar
Micha Berger
micha at aishdas.org
Mon Oct 31 12:57:04 PDT 2011
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 02:40:02PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
>>> There's no p'tur of mitztaer on the first night! How is this a proof of
>>> anything?
>> I believe you're taking two sides of the same machloqes. If you hold
>> that mitzta'er renders the booth a non-sukkah, then you hold that
>> mitzta'er is a petur on the first night -- you have no Sukkah to go to!
> Am I correct in guessing that you haven't actually looked in Har'rei
> Kedem? ...
Yes, I heard RYBS in a recording, I don't recall of which shiur, and
presumed his presentation of the story was consistent with the one that
made it to print.
> Here's my translation of the relevant bit: "R. Moshe responded
> to him that in any case he's obliged. Everyone agrees that mitztaer is
> obliged to eat the first kezayis on the first night [in the sukka]. The
> person who exempts does so only on the grounds that the sukka is unfit
> as a residence during rainfall; it lacks the status (shem) of sukka and
> lacks the status of residence (dirah)."
> The implication is that according to those opinions which permit
> eating inside there can be no kiyum until the rain stops. Hence RMS
> woke up his children at that point.
I think the difference between us is wording: whether you want to call
"i efshar", the permission not to sit in a sukkah when none exists, is
to be called a "petur", or you avoid the term -- in your translation,
by using the English "exempts".
If you look at the text you're replying to, I called "you have no Sukkah
to go to" a petur, something HK says as "The person who exempts does so
only on the grounds that the sukka is unfit".
>> BTW, I since found in Reshimos Shi'urim, Sukkah pg 92, that RYBS draws
>> the conclusion I did from the story. He makes a chiluq between where the
>> sukkah and the space within it causes the tza'ar, and when the tza'ar
>> is getting to the Sukkah.
> Yes, the conclusions there are very different than in Har'rei Kedem...
Not having seen HK but only your summary thereof (and hearing RYBS telling
the story, in what was probably a 3rd setting) I have no idea how you see
the two as different. Just as I don't see how your translation differs
in substance from what I wrote.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
micha at aishdas.org I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites
More information about the Avodah
mailing list