[Avodah] Birds & Fish in the Mabul

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:30:53PM +0200, harchinam wrote:
: > How do you explain the apparent evidence of continuous human habitation,
: > going back thousands of years before the mabul, in the Americas, Australia
: > and  Asia -- and the lack of evidence of any interruption and world-wide
: > wipeout of  human life ca. 4000 years ago?

: What evidence? There is none, really...

A recent example http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/334517.stm --
written material found at Harappa, which was a city in what's now Pakistan
in the years 3500 - 2600 BCE. So, evidence of non-Hebrew and civilization
before both the mabul and the migdal. (And, in fact, dating not too long
after the Seder Olam's dating of the eviction from Gan Eden.)

Proto-Elami text dating 3100-2600 BCE. Even Elmaite cuneiform predates
these events.

The Kish Tablet has Sumerian text in proto-cuneiform, also dating to
3500 BCE, and several HUNDRED such documents were found at Uruk. Also,
texts from 2800 BCE or so at Tel Harmal.

Two nations even had a peace treaty signed in Elami in 2600 BCE.

There is A LOT of evidence from before 2102 BCE (the mabul according to
Sefer Olam) and 1765 (the SO's date for the migdal).


That said, I personally believe in a literal global flood and that all
the "languages" were really cross-comprehensible dialects (at most)
until the migdal.

The question RnTK asked was "How do you explain the apparent evidence
of continuous human habitation..." The closest I have to an answer is
based on a view of reality that is very far from the common sensical one.
See
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/02/rav-dessler-on-reality-and-perception.shtml>
for my understanding of the Maharal's, Kant's, Mach's, REED's, and
Einstein's notion on the relationship between science, evidence and
objective reality. Teaser:
    Perhaps the inability to find archeological evidence of the flood
    or the tower of Bavel is akin to Rav Dessler's description of the
    time of creation: "[I]t seems like this to one with a materialistic
    perspective, the entire cause and effect experience is simply a
    superficial shell which encompasses these fundamental and essential
    aspects of creation." And perhaps if we had more meritorious
    archeologists, ones who glimpse into olam hayetzirah, they would find
    such evidence. (But would be unable to share it with the rest of us.)

    This would mean the problem understanding the mabul is not a
    contradiction between the Torah and the empirical data, but
    an inconsistency inherent in different peoples' version of the
    empirical world.

I frankly admit I don't have an answer most people would find satisfying
-- including myself on many days. However, I have a system for deciding
what's without the bounds of mesorah and what isn't, and it works quite
well for me in general. Questions of history are an odd corner of what
the Torah discusses, and not having all the answers for the fringes of
a theory isn't sufficient reason to reject it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
micha at aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
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