[Avodah] losing 'nishba' status

[Daniel Eidensohn]

On 10/7/2011 1:27 PM, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
> R' Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> I don't understand the mi'ut of today's poseqim ... chamur posiiton,
>> ... Which means that any valid reason why the person isn't fully
>> accountable for his decision ought to be a halachic factor. Even
>> if they aren't closely similar to a TsN.

*Igros Moshe*[1]***(Even HaEzer 1:82):*I mean even more. That even 
concerning the children that the Rambam writes (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) 
"however the children of those who erred and their descendants who have 
been misled by their fathers and were born amongst the Karaites who 
raised them according to their mistaken understanding they are like 
tinok shenishba (captive children). They have been raised not to be 
concerned about keeping mitzvos and it is like they are forced against 
their will." Thus we see that these descendants do not have the status 
of being lowered into the pit and not being raised out -- nonetheless 
they are also invalid witnesses. While it is true that they are not less 
valid than non-Jew, nevertheless they are not more valid than non-Jews 
either in regards to be a witness. That is because they are not 
considered as Jews in regard to being a witness... Thereforejust as 
non-Jews are invalid witnesses so are these children of heretics. Even 
though in regards to not rescuing them from a pit it is logical that 
they are superior to non-Jews. That isfor the reason stated in the 
Rambam that they are to be encouraged to repent with pleasant words 
until they return to the Torah -- a reason which is not relevant for 
non-Jews. Nevertheless as long as they haven't repented and remain in 
their mistaken ways they are not superior in general to non-Jews since 
we see that heretics are considered to have left the Jewish people since 
they are not observing the Jewish religion. Therefore as long as they 
continue their mistaken understanding and behavior they are not included 
in the Jewish people. The only exception is that they are superior in 
regards to the issue of saving them because there is no obligation to 
get non-Jews to observe more mitzvos but there is such an obligation for 
the children of heretics. Therefore even if you consider them to be 
tinok shenishba amongst the non-Jews because of the heresy which has 
become widespread in the world -- G-d save us -- and they are just being 
influenced by their environment- nevertheless they are invalid witnesses 
because they are not betterthan non-Jews. In fact, however it is 
reasonable to say that these children of heretics are not considered in 
the category of tinok shenishba amongst the non-Jews since they live in 
places where religiously observant Jews are found and also because their 
ancestors believed in G-d and His Torah and they were influenced to 
follow in the mistaken ways of their parents. In fact they had the 
option of following in the influence of the religiously observant and 
their ancestors and a son is moreinfluenced by his ancestors. If so they 
are in effect freely choosing the bad path and they through their evil 
thoughts are caught up in evil and they have misled themselves. And I 
sawin the Rambam(Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) that he writes, "And what is our 
case that the person is considered a full heretic and should be killed? 
It is a person who follows after his lightheaded thoughts and after the 
desires of his heart and denies the Oral Torah just as Tzadok and Baysos 
did first and similarly all those who mistakenly followed after them." 
Thus we see that even those who mistakenly followed after Tzadok and 
Baysos even though they themselves were not heretics. However after they 
were captured by the words of Tzadok and Baysos and followed after them 
and did not follow after the good observant Jews - they are considered 
asthose who initiated heresy. The reason is simple because they also saw 
righteous and observant people and they were able to follow after them 
and nevertheless they went after the wicked and therefore they are 
considered as having deliberately sinned. Thus is it with our present 
case. These people also see righteous and observant people and they are 
able to follow after them. Nevertheless they are caught to go after the 
wicked and are thus intentional sinners and are like those who initially 
denied the Torah and therefore they are included amongst those who 
should be lowered into a pit and not rescued and are therefore worse 
than non-Jews and they are invalid as witnesses as I have explained.


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