[Avodah] national flag???

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Flags were invented in the early 2nd millennium CE.  They did
> not exist in Biblical times, or in Chazal's.  I don't know when
> standards were invented; the medrash about the tribes' standards
> may be historical for all I know, but it wouldn't shock me if it
> weren't.

I was totally confused by this, and I was going to ask you about it, because "flag" and "standard" have been pretty synonomous in my experience. But then R' Micha Berger wrote:

> So, a neis is a pole on which Moshe put the nechash nechoshes,
> which combined make what certainly sounds like a standard of
> the sort used by the Roman Army.

So: Am I to understand that a flag is a sheet of fabric containing a two-dimensional design or symbol of some sort, while a standard is a pole which supports a three-dimensional object which is serving as a symbol of some sort?

If that is the distinction, then I must still ask RSZ about his understanding of the word "neis":

> It's probably something that serves the same purpose for which
> flags were invented, but it can't mean a flag, unless they're
> a technology that was lost and rediscovered.   Chazal seem to
> have thought it meant a standard, which was an invention known
> in their day, but perhaps not in David's; I don't know.

What sort of flag technology was lacking? My understanding (Shemos 26:31) is that the Paroches had images of keruvim embroidered into it. If one can make such a Paroches, what additional technology is needed for a flag?

Anyway, I concede that on Bamidbar 21:8, Rashi says that a "neis" is a "klonas" - a pole. But there's another common word for flag: "degel". And Rashi on Bamidbar 2:2 seems to use "degel" in what seems to me like a pretty good description of a flag (although it is a flag of one solid color).

Akiva Miller


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