[Avodah] Saying selichos after Shacharis

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

R' Marty Bluke asked:

> I was thinking of doing the following, sleeping a little later
> and getting up to daven vasikin (starting around 5:30), and then
> after shacharis at vasikin go to a later minyan which is just
> starting to say selichos around 6:15 and just say selichos.
>
> Does anyone see any halachic issues with this?

Hilchos Rosh Hashana begins with the Mechaber 581:1 writing: "Nohagim lakum b'ashmores lomar selichos v'tachanunim... -- The custom is to get up early to say selichos and prayers..."

I concede that "ashmores" probably has a more specific meaning than merely "early". For example, the Mishna Berura (in his introduction to that siman) seems to say that it refers to the end of the night.

I have always understood it to mean that at the very least, at this time of year, one gets up earlier than usual to say these special prayers. And therefore, it seems to me that saying these prayers late at night, or after shacharis, or even at the same time as one normally begins shacharis, misses the whole point of saying them at all.

There are those who would argue with what I just wrote. They would point out that the "whole point" of saying these prayers is to invoke the Yud Gimel Midos at a time which is an Ays Ratzon and thus more likely to influence Hashem to be merciful. I am emphatically NOT DISAGREEING with that. All I'm saying is that if one is not aiming for the Ays Ratzon, he should at least aim to say selichos at a time which at least LOOKS like the Ays Ratzon.

But that's just me.

Now, as for the question, "Does anyone see any halachic issues with this?", I guess that would depend on how you're defining "halachic". Selichos is, after all, and in the words of the Mechaber I quoted above, "just" a minhag, not a halacha.

Akiva Miller

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