[Avodah] rules

[Lisa Liel]

On 10/11/2011 10:33 AM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
>> Even if you believe that torture doesn't result in usable
>> information, I don't see any reason it would be forbidden
>> halakhically, other than the possibility of a chillul Hashem.
>> Lisa

> Tzaar baalei chayim?

Was there supposed to be a smiley after that? I don't imagine that
during a time of war, when the opposing side is anyway covered by "Hatov
she'ba-goyim -- b'sh'at milchama -- harog", we'd need to worry about
causing them tzaar.


On 10/11/2011 10:44 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:24:53AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> There are rules of warfare other than not cutting down fruit trees.  A
>> book was published recently called Torat HaMelech which apparently deals
>> with those subjects, many of which are far from politically correct.
>> The book has not been translated into English, so far as I'm aware.

> OTOH, there is another sefer...
> Given the heat it generated, the problem is far worse than PC-ness,
> it's considered by these rabbanim to be halachically wrong in ways that
> would have people killed.

> Anyway, see<http://bit.ly/derechHamelech>, Derekh haMelekh by R'
> Ariel Finkelstein, pgs 93-142 are a conscious rebuttal to Torat
> haMelekh.

However, the part of that section relating to wartime is somewhat empty
of content. L'chaf zechut, it may be that chapters 5 and 6 of Torat
Hamelekh are equally bad -- I can't speak to that, since I haven't been
able to obtain a copy of the book -- but, well, let me quote from that
section of Derekh haMelekh in part (and in translation):

    Torat HaMelekh -- Chapters 5 and 6: Killing non-Jews in Wartime,
    and Intentionally Attacking Innocents

    In these chapters, the authors deal with "killing non-Jews in wartime"
    (chapter 5) and "intentally attacking innocents" (chapter 6). First,
    they attempt to apply the conclusions that they reached in previous
    chapters -- conclusions which we have already challenged -- to
    wartime. Beyond this, most of the discussions in these chapters
    are based on biblical content which is midrashic of conceptual,
    and in light of this, it is easy to overcome their positions,
    as Rabbi Shmuel Ariel has shown in his article "This is not Torat
    HaMelech". Additionally, I see no need to respond to these chapters,
    since the halakhic sources on the subject are vague and imprecise,
    and halakhic determination in the topic should, it seems to be,
    be left to the Gedolei HaDor and to poskim with public responsibility.

I searched the book for reference to the halakha of hatov she'ba-goyim
-- b'sh'at milchama -- harog and found nothing. Which seems odd for
a book purporting to deal with that subject. This halakha is brought
down l'halakha in the Shulchan Aruch -- twice.

> Both books focus on the halakhos of killing, rodef, non-combatants, etc...

> More along the same lines as bal tashchis, there is the chiyuv to dig
> latrines, the laws of eishes yefas to'ar. Can anyone think of more?

Leaving one side open in a siege.

Lisa