[Avodah] Humanoids Talmud Torah

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 01:01:27PM +1000, Meir Rabi wrote:
: 3. RaMBaM advises/instructs us to study nature in order to know Gd;
: surely that would be TT.

He lists it in Yesodei haTorah 2, in his discussion of ahavas H'. I
therefore would assume that it's not TT, but -- as he says -- the
maaseh mitzvah to get to the qiyum of ahavah itself.

:     a. However, I urge that we take note that RaMBaM does not
:        advise/instruct us to learn various Pessukim rhapsodising about
:        nature in order to gain this awareness.

:     b. Studying such matters is probably within the realm of TT

Miqra is listed as 1/3 (at least for non-masters) of the mitvah of
TT. Not probably TT, definitely.

I also am not sure whether the Rambam would make the distinction between
studying nature itself and pesuqim about nature, science and revalation,
that you are.

...
: 5. I am reminded of a discussion with a young fellow who insisted he
: had had a religious spiritual experience -- he had this remarkable
: experience at a concert of Guns and Roses. Is there any way to evaluate
: such an experience?

See RAEKaplan's Shetei Derakhim
<http://www.aishdas.org/raek/2derachim.pdf>, top of pg 22 (6th pg of
PDF). He asks this question about chassidim being moved by the music of
a tish. Does the experience penetrate to produce real Deveikus, or
is the person moved as we would by any good melody? And how does he
know, so as to avoid thelatter experience?

When RnTK recently pointed out on Areivim a problem with mussar -- that
the constant self-relection can reduce one's Yahadus to being overly
Me oriented -- I noted this as the flipside problem if one neglects
the self-reflection. (Ever derekh has its strengths and weaknesses;
part of why no one size fits all.)

...
: 8. Is every single word in the Gemara TT?
:     a. The talk about use of the bathroom
:     b. Healthy lifestyles?

Is the gemara actually going off topic? The Ramchal asserts that all of
these discussions, as well as the scientific ones, are actually aggadic
statements crouched in meshalim. (The meshalim themselves could have
been believed as fact, but that's irrelevent to us.)

Similarly, the Gra says (Even Sheleimah 1:11) that all of the gemara's
discussions about going to the bathroom is actually about pruning
destructive middos.

    Therefore one must cleanse one's heart every day before study and
    after it of impure attitudes and middos with a fear of sin and
    good deeds.

    This [process] is euphemistically called "going to the bathroom". They
    were was about this they hinted when they said "Going to the
    bathroom is greater than all of it." (Berakhos 8a) And when they said
    "Whomever spends a long time in the bathroom, it is lofty." (Ibid
    55a) Also when they said, "Get up early and go, in the evening go"
    (Ibid 62a) they intend to say that in his youth and in his old age
    he shouldn't distance himself a great distance from his Creator so
    that he couldn't be helped.

    One must inspect which evil middah is strong within him, and after
    that clean it out. Not like those men of desire who wallow in what
    they want, and the desire grows greater. It requires a lot of slyness,
    to be "sly in yir'ah" (Abayei, Ibid 17a) in opposition to the "snake
    was sly".

This position is actually closer to your original statement than
this latter post of yours is. I'm arguing that we should be showing
people how this over-focus on Torah-as-history is a distortion of
mesorah. While knowing peshat in the pasuq is useful, history or science
aren't the Torah's primary topic and shouldn't be a particularly central
concern. It's the kind of tangential thing about which one ought be able
to live with open questions.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
micha at aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch