[Avodah] Rav on Women's Ordination

[Esther and Aryeh Frimer]

>From: Ira Tick <itick1986 at gmail.com>
>A few thoughts/questions:

>1) As already mentioned in the article near its end, the Rambam is a
>da'as yachid regarding women and serara/minui. Which is worth mentioning,
>because it lends further strength to the next question:

Indeed, Rav Moshe Feinstein maintains that Rambam is a da'at Yahid.  However, he was unaware that we indeed find the Rambam's formulation in the Finkelstein edition of the Sifrei, Midrash Tanna'im, and Midrash Ha-Gadol.  In addition the Ritva also maintains like the Rambam.

>2) How can the Rav assume the Rema's support for the minhag that women
>are not shochtot is based on the Rambam?

I think you should read the cited. {Shi'ur Shi'urei HaRav on Yoreh De'ah is available for purchase here: http://www.ou.org/oupress/category/1680. The article was translated by R. Gil Stuident in this post (http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2009/06/women-slaughterers.html)}. You will see why the Rav is disatisfied with the other rationales (like women fainting).

>3) Even if kabbala is seen as a siman that a given position is a "minui
>kahal," since when does kabbala become an ikuvah for minui kahal? If
>a woman is in a position of responsibility on the community's behalf,
>such as serving on a synagogue board, serving as a shul vice-president,
>treasurer or secretary, or as a mashgicha, how does the absence of kabbala
>prevent her service from being considered minui? These positions should,
>especially based on the distinction between gerim and women at the end
>of the article, be forbidden to women.

PLEASE read the shiur. As I explained, the Rav believes that since one cannot be a Shochet without being communally certified by a recognized authority, hence being a Shochet becomes a minui Kahal.  The required examination/certification converts into a "an appointment over the community" which the Rav believes the Rambam forbids for women.

>4) When drawing a distinction between converts and women, the article
>notes that women all prohibited from serving in the capacity of minui
>kahal - "community wide appointments" and from being entrusted with
>serara - "discretionary authority," whereas converts are barred only
>from serara. If that is the case, how is it that women are permitted
>to serve in any of the positions mentioned above in, since those are
>indeed communal positions and were only permitted to her by the Rav
>because they lacked serara. Somewhere, the definition of serara and the
>Rav's distinction within the Rambam between serara and minui kahal is
>not completely clear.

Please read my article again and the Rav's shiur [or R. Gil Student's translation].  The Rav clearly distinguishes between "community wide appointments" and Serara.  He is forced into this because women are precluded from serving as communal dayanim, yet the Gemara indicates that a Ger can sit on a bet din to judge gerim. Hence a ger is not assur from minui kahal per se - only one of serara.  According to the Rav, minui kahal or serara is assur for women;  only minui kahal of serara is assur for  gerim. 

The Rav did not consider being a school principal a minui Kahal, because it did not demand certification and only affected a limited population.  As far as serara was concerned according to several poskim, the serara prohibition does not apply when the elected individual does not enjoy exclusive, final decision-making power.  No violation is involved, therefore, when dealing with an appointment to a council which reaches decisions together as a group, such as election to the Knesset (Rabbi Yosef Kafah, Ha-isha Ve-chinukha, Amana, 5740, p. 37), a municipal Religious Council, or to a synagogue board (Rav Soloveitchik discussed in Article).  Likewise, a position does not qualify as serara if its holder's decisions require the consent of a higher authoritative body.  For example, the decisions of a school principal (such as employing or dismissing teachers) must be approved by the board of education (Rabbi Aryeh Leib Grosenes, Shu"t Lev Aryeh, 2:21).

For further discussion see: “Women in Community Leadership Roles in the Modern Period,” Aryeh A. Frimer, In “Afikei Yehudah - Rabbi Yehuda Gershuni zt’l Memorial Volume,” R. Itamar Warhaftig, ed., Ariel Press: Jerusalem, 5765 (2005), pp. 330-354 (In Hebrew). HTML file available online at http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mishpach/maamad/nashim-2.htm.  See also “Women in Community Leadership Roles – Shul Presidents” "Text and Texture" of the Rabbinical Council of America (June 2, 2010) - available online at http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=931.

>5) The other distinction made between gerim and women was based on the
>Netziv, who proved from the acceptance of Herod as a Jewish monarch
>that a ger may serve with serara if the need arrises--his convert
>status does not invalidate his position. This idea is interesting,
>though no actual reason was given as to why that distinction should
>be made. The real problem though is the proof in its support. The idea
>that Herod was "accepted" as both Jewish and as the legitimate king is
>inconceivable. The people of Judea accepted Herod firstly because they
>had no choice and secondly because he appeased them by refurbishing the
>Temple. Herod was never accepted by the rabbis, for he was their sworn
>enemy, and they both questioned and openly mocked his conversion and
>his claim to royalty. "Whoever comes and says I am descended from the
>House of the Hasmoneans is a [gentile] slave."  And Chazal say that 
>Herod was a necrophiliac.


Herod had a lot of bad traits, Josephus is full of his blood thirsty escapades.  Of course Haza"l didn't like him. But all that is is irrelevant to the question of whether his kingship was halakhically valid, and the Netsiv says "Yes."  Look at the Netsiv for yourself. 
The Hasmoneans should not have taken the kingship, certainly not permanently.  But it did not make them invalid Kings.   If you revolted against them you were mored be-malkhut.   Ahav was king of Israel, yet Eliyahu haNavi ran before his Chariot out of Kavod!!!  You may be inappropriate yet valid.



--------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: FrimeA at mail.biu.ac.il
Tel: 972-3-5318610; Fax: 972-3-7384053
Tel Home: 972-8-9473819/9470834
Cellphone: 972-54-7540761
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