[Avodah] is there morality outside of the Torah?

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:14:33PM -0400, T613K at aol.com wrote:
: "Derech eretz" has a number of overlapping meanings, somewhat depending
: on context. It can mean civilization, ethics, morality, etiquette or
: basic menshlichkeit...

Quoting myself, v4n36:
> I think this is a different usage of DE. I've identified what I
> believe to be three different usages:
> Yafeh TT im DE -- involvement in the outside world
> DE kadma laTorah -- midos and being a mentsh
> zu p'rishus DE -- proper usage of ta'avos gashmios (or at least one
> of them)

And v24n58:
> TiDE presumes a definition of DE that has to do with beingpersonally
> refined. More like the usage I associated with DEKL.

> My unifything theme is aretz, life in olam hazeh. Especially as
> gemillus chasadim is developed by the Maharal on Avos 1:2 -- "gemillus
> chassadim" is the perfection of one's relationship to other residents
> of olam hazeh. (In contrast to avodah - one's relationship to the
> Borei, and Torah - one's relationship with the sole resident of one's
> mind, oneself.) And thus marital relations with full kavod given to
> one's partner are the ultimate in DE, being the synthesis of actions
> to build the physical world, enjoy the physical world, and bond with
> another resident of that world.

And then in v4n395:
> Derech Eretz (as I concluded in v04n036) has three meanings that
> share the basic notion of knowing how to live in Olam haZeh
> ("eretz"). Avraham Avinu discovers HKBH by noticing the wonders of
> eretz, is mekareiv people, willingto associate with what he thought
> were three sand-worshipping idolaters. This is TIDE. He is mekareiv
> them how? By performing chessed -- DE in the sense of DE kadma
> laTorah. And he is given the b'ris milah -- DE as in the "perishus
> DE" of the haggadah.
...
> While TIDE looks at an external DE, including mentchlach because of
> its impact on others, mussar looks at DE as a means of improving the
> self.
> It therefore only centers about the chessed/mentchlachkeit aspect of
> DE. Mussar included an asceticism that doesn't jibe with the other
> uses of the expression "DE"...

> We discussed on Avodah the overlap between TuM and Chassidus, in the
> sense that Chassidus too utilizes the gashmi -- in some contexts.
> The tisch and the use of alcohol come to mind immediately. What
> they really share is an outsideness. The mountain and the field are
> very different -- one lifts the earth, the other glories in its raw
> G-dliness, but they are both ways to be outside the home.

Tana devei Eliyahu Rabba (1:1) tells us the Bereishis 3:24, "lishmor es
derekh eitz chayim" is "melameid sheDE qodomah le'eitz chayim, ve'ein
eitz chayim ela Torah".

There is also Medrash Rabba on Vayiqra 9:3, where R' Shemu'el bar
Nachman teaches that the 26 generations between Adam to Moshe is to
teach us that Derekh Eretz Qodmah laTorah. 1312 years of human history
because DE is a prerequisite before Torah is a possibility.


In terms of our discussion, it's clear that if DE is held out as a
different category, and one that Torah requires rather than requiring
Torah, then DE is something of ethical value that is beyond Torah.

I take it that was RnTK's whole point.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
micha at aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot