[Avodah] is there morality outside of the Torah

[Micha Berger]

See also RY Amital's talk at
<http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/chag70/shavuot70-a.htm>, 2nd article.

I see there being two similar issues and their distinction is worth
underlining.

The question in the subject line is:
1- Is there morality outside of the Torah?
   This is the question of whether we believe natural morality exists.
   (RYA's section II)

2- Is there Torah mandated morality outside of halakhah?
   (RYA's section III)

   Lifnim mishuras hadin -- how does one define "within"? How do you
   define tov, yashar, qedoshim tihyu... And when chazal speak of
   derekh eretz preceding Torah by 26 generations, what is derekh eretz?
   What does ve'ahavta lereiakha obligate? The position is contradicted
   by the Ramban's concept of naval birshus haTorah, as well as his
   tatement on "ve'asisa hatov vehayashar" that it sums up interpersonal
   morality in all the myriads of way the rest of the pereq (Vayiqra 19)
   can't possibly cover. It is also rejected by the Rambam, as is seen in
   his exploration of taamei hamitzvos in the Moreh, and in Hil' Dei'os's
   discussion of vehalakhta bidrakhav. Chassidus and Mussar obviously
   both consider the notion false, as both have further practices based
   on such derived values. Etc, etc, etc...


On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 09:35:51AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Benjamin Whichcote quotes Abraham who tells G-d that G-d Forbid that
: G-d should kill the innocent with the guilty - Shall then the judge of
: the whole earth
: not do justice? This makes sense only if there is a justice that
: applies also to G-d,
: otherwise the question is circular.

This drifts into Euthypro. Whichcote is assuming that either justice is
defined by "that which G-d declares just" or also applies to G-d. What
if Avraham was really asking, "How can you expect us to be just if You
do not model that behavior?" A vehalakhta bidrakhav based question.

More definitely along the lines of our issue:
: Abaye says the purpose of the Torah is to promote peace. So Abaye assumes
: that peace is an objective value. R Saadia Gaon in his introduction to
: Emunot veDeot says that most mitzvot could be discovered by man given
: enough time and interest and this seems to be the opinion of R. Bachya
: (from RAL).

And what about Hillel's answer to the prospective geir? "Mah desani" also
defines a natural morality.

: In Eruvin R. Yochanan states that without the Torah we could learn
: modesty from the cat, chastity from the dove etc. As Moshe indicates
: one could turn this around. Obviously R. Yochanan feels there are
: absolutes that we would learn without the Torah.

R Yeshaiah Leibowitz actually answers "no" to both, which is what
astounded RnTK recently. I find the claim amazing as well. The notion
that one doesn't derive moral values from the halakhah and thus has
requirements beyond the letter of the law makes it hard to explain
the list I gave above, RET's (RAL's?) examples of Abaye, RDC and R'
Yochanan, etc...

I know of no prior source, and much TSBP in opposition. Aside from
pesuqim I do not know how RYL would explain. Does he address defining
tov and yashar anywhere? Here we have a chiyuv, and no defined limits
other than simply "be good and ethical". Doesn't that presume a preknown
definition of these concepts?

: The Mechilta quotes R Issi ben Akiba that if killing a nonJew was
: prohibited before Sinai then certainly Sinai can not permit something
: that was forbidden...

And this highlights the problem with all these examples. The Mekhilta
is asking my second question. It is speaking know from revelation,
beris Noach, that murder is assur. The Mechilta isn't saying it's self
evident, or "mah desani", or the like. This text does not refer to the
question in the subject line.

Jumping back to part of RET's post that I skipped above:
: Abaye says the purpose of the Torah is to promote peace. So Abaye assumes
: that peace is an objective value...

Abaye holds that peace is a primary value. But was that natural morality,
or deduced from pesuqim and halakhos about shalom? 

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha at aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter