[Avodah] is there morality outside of the Torah

[Eli Turkel]

moved from Areivim
<<As Jews, do we believe that there is such a thing as obvious evil? I think
not - I think that Jews believe that good and evil are defined by Hashem,
and we interpret His will by reading the Torah.

And who defines what that moral sensibility should tell us? You say cows are
for meat; I say cows are sentient beings who feel pain>>

Benjamin Whichcote quotes Abraham who tells G-d that G-d Forbid that
G-d should kill the innocent with the guilty - Shall then the judge of
the whole earth
not do justice? This makes sense only if there is a justice that
applies also to G-d,
otherwise the question is circular.

Abaye says the purpose of the Torah is to promote peace. So Abaye assumes
that peace is an objective value. R Saadia Gaon in his introduction to
Emunot veDeot says that most mitzvot could be discovered by man given
enough time and interest and this seems to be the opinion of R. Bachya
(from RAL).

The Mechilta quotes R Issi ben Akiba that if killing a nonJew was
prohibited before Sinai then certainly Sinai can not permit something
that was forbidden. Again assumes there are basics which the Torah
could not permit and we know it is basic since it was prohibited
befroe the Torah was given.

In Eruvin R. Yochanan states that without the Torah we could learn
modesty from the cat, chastity from the dove etc. As Moshe indicates
one could turn this around. Obviously R. Yochanan feels there are
absolutes that we would learn without the Torah.

To quote Whitehead (again from RAL) What is universal is the spirit
which should permeate any behavior system ...
RAL quotes the pasuk from Yirmiyahu
";But let him that glorieth, glory in this, that he understand and know
me for I am the Lord who ecercises mercy,justice and righteousness in
the earth for these I desire says the Lord"

--
Eli Turkel