[Avodah] Haleiv HaCompanies

[rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com]

Here is a simple approach to what I've been trying to say

First
Toss aside any "idea framing" and examine the sources w/o any subsequent
embellishment

-- Begin Digression--
EG my host Friday night chol hamoed insisted upon preaching to me that
the Mah Nishtaneh was NEVER intended for the children to recite and
proceeded to paraphrase Rashi/Rashbam and the Mishnah itself to make
his point!

--Begin Sarcasm --
HMMMM Where have I heard this point before ;-) 

At any rate being stubbornly commited to having the youngest recite the
shebchal halaylos, why should anyone re-examine to see how it used to
be done? Let's simply presume that it's ALWAYS been so!
--end sarcasm--
--end digression --

Second
The Mishnah and Talmud tells us about permitted milk

Mishnah:
Milk milked by a Gentile with "a Jew seeing him.."

Braisso - "with a Jew sitting there"

Gmara - with a Jew sitting there w/o seeing but who COULD
see. Why? Intimidation [mirsas]

Issue
Hazal were chosheish for a Gentile using some or all milk from a
non-kosher animal [EG pig]

Two points - 1 explicit
1 implicit.

Explicit -
If the Gentile is intimidated goodbye ch'shash

Implicit - 
If no non-kosher animals are there it's also OK

Dynamic:
Hazal have a ch'shash Intimidation OR the absence of contaminants removes
this ch'shash.

----------------------

RMF/IM's salient point through Wolpoe's prism [note I need to review
the Shu"t inside again]

USDA successfully imposes the same amount of intimidation as an Israelite
in the vicinity who may or may not be seeing. So usda equates to
Yisroel Yosheiv.

Corollary - video cameras can also provide sufficient intimidation.  

+++++++++++++++

Wolpoe's confusion
Why is Anan Sahadi needed?

I don't see it as helping or hurting. Maybe the Anan Sahadi IS that the
USDA is an intimidator. I'm not sure why a simple judgment by a poseiq
can't accomplish this. I would suppose video cameras would work even
w/o a field test - so long as the Gentiles are sufficiently informed
that they are - or even MIGHT BE - observed.

+++++++++++++++

The issue of having a Jew literlally and physically SEE [IE Roeihu]
is in the mishnah but not in the Halachah. I am told that al pi sod
some require physically SEEING. Al pi sod perhaps, but AFAICT not al
pi Shas and Posqim

+++++++++++++++

Why doesn't KAJ EG accept this heter?  Perhaps

A. KAJ sees USDA as NOT so intimidating so it's a machloqes in shiqqul
hadda'as [or in metzius]

Or 

B KAJ has many Europeans. USDA is insufficient because of a "lo plug"
that we want a single GLOBAL standard of Haleiv Yisroel - and NOT to
Be subject to the vagaries of local gov't agencies.

+++++++++++++++

If my approach appears overly simplistic. Perhaps so. I'm not pasqening
- I'm being M'vareir [pun intended] how the USDA factor can work ICW
the words of Shas - w/o any embellishment by EG Acharonim.

Q: Dear Rabbi Wolpoe: Might there be external factors in the halachic
universe NOT addressed by this sugya alone?

A: Perhaps so. So far I haven't seen anything convincing yet.

Homework to me:
I need to re-read the first RMF/IM Shu"t on this

Homework to the readers:
If any rishonim add embellishments to this sugya that would trigger the
NEED for " EG anan sahadi" plz post them

After drafting this before posting it, I was informed that the Pri
Chadash indeed does have such a concern of Birur.

------------------------

Serendipity

While learning SA, I came across this related issue of Mirsas

See SA-YD 68:12
Re: a Gentile doing m'ligah w/o an Israelite supervising... 

Even when a naar or naara are there who understand [or are capable of
understanding] it's muttar.

Be'er Hagolah 20
Shach 34 
Creisi 21 
mishum d'mirsas
Ba'er Hetev 23 quotes shach
GRA 36
Just like sh'chita and yayn nesech, yotzei v'nichnas m'hani

Re: Meisi'ach lefi sumo
It's a machloqes Shach and other acharonim

AISI - this aspect of Birur is gray, but mirsas is not - because again
AISI it's NOT birur but ch'shash removal

See Darchei T'shuva et al. who discuss what if the Gentile was
disobedient, this AIUI restores ch'shash by removing mirsas.

Good Voch
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile