[Avodah] (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 12:02:07PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: You might want to reread that Abarbanel.  He holds that the Rambam held 
: that Avraham, not Lot, had the prophetic vision, and the entire parsha 
: up to 19:26 when Avraham wakes up is a retelling of Avraham's vision.  

Tangent, I would have said, which Abarbanel. In the chumash he explains
his own opinion... he and the Rambam have a deep difference in what
nevu'ah is. Leshitaso, nevu'ah is miraculous. According to the Rambam,
it's stopping prophecy from someone ready for it that's the miracle.
Rather, I'm talking about what he says in his peirush on the MN 2:42.

Now, to RDR, thanks for correcting me about Lot having seen the mal'akhim
as well. I suppose that means that Lot had to rely on bitachon to know
he was being saved for hashgachah peratis reasons, rather than seeing
that fact bechush.

:             According to the Rambam you cannot predicate place of 
: disembodied beings (I can find the citation in MN if you really need it) 
: and therefore you can't literally mean "the angels were actually 
: there".  I don't know what you do mean.

I don't think I do either. I'm only named for a navi, and am thus trying
to describe a state of awareness I've never experienced.

In any case, even if "there" is figurative, and that only Avraha,
not Lot had the vision, the point stands. In the Abarbanel's version
of the Rambam's shitah, a nevu'ah is the Imaginative faculty wrapping
sensory-like experience around something real but metaphysical that the
navi becomes aware of. Whereas according to the Ramban, it's a metaphor
constructed by the Almighty to relay a message.

Which means that they must have very different notions of what an
error is.


On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 09:46:06AM -0400, hankman wrote:
: To enlarge a bit on the question of the Ramban: How does the Rambam
: understand the anshei s'dom asking for the visitors. One could imagine
: that [Avraham] had a mareh nevuoh, but certainly the anshei s'dom did not have
: a mareh nevuoh? ...

Leshitaso, IAUI:
The whole event, complete with the angelic interaction with anshei Sedom,
was Avraham's nevu'ah. It was how Avraham perceived the mal'akhim's
influence as they overturned Sedom but spared Lot's family.

: Also, trying to understand the Ramban who according to you holds that
: a novi could misinterpret his nevuoh. This implies, that even though
: Hashem wished to communicate a message to the novi, sometime he fails do
: communicate as He desires due to the frailties of the novi. Would this
: not be contrary to our understanding of Hashem the he is "kol yochol"? so
: the Ramban needs a hesber as well.

Bechirah means that a person can be befuddled by negi'os.

People can sin through ta'us too, it doesn't make HQBH's omnipotence
any less.


But you're misunderstanding my post, as did RYZ when he wrote
on Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 10:30pm EDT:
:> . The Ramban's shitah, OTOH, more readily supports
:> the possibillity of the navi misunderstanding parts of the message.

: Please give exact examples, so that I can understand where you are leading
: with this.

I am trying to present a line of attack, not a solution. People are
tyring to put together a picture from a selection of rishonim. Since
those rishonim disagree on what nevu'ah is, how can one combine or even
contrast their picture on how nevu'ah can be flawed?

I was trying to get the conversation split into distinct substreams
based on what nevu'ah might be.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
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